"Research casts doubt on new MS theory"

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"Research casts doubt on new MS theory"

Postby zap » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:05 pm


hmmmm ... interesting how the same study can spawn an article like this one.
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Postby Sotiris » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:23 pm

Both he [Dr. Paul O'Connor] and Dr. Freedman also suggested that Dr. Ziadinov may be in a conflict of interest.

They forget to add that they are the only ones that are not in a conflict of interest...
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Postby JoyIsMyStrength » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:27 pm

Well I guess we should have expected this. It doesn't bother me too much though. Glass half empty / half full sort of thing. I believe the Buffalo results will have huge implications but I'm coming from a different perspective and there will always be naysayers.

I take offense at this statement though:

Dr. Paul O'Connor, a neurologist at Toronto's St. Michael's Hospital, said he would advise against patients even getting tested.

"There is not a shred of real evidence anywhere that messing around with these veins does anything to help MS patients," he said. "If there is no treatment for this condition, there is no need to detect it."

Our TiMS friend Magoo (Rhonda) is more than a "shred." So is Rose and many others who have had their lives turned around due to this procedure. If all doctors want to do is hide behind their EAE mouse models, I wonder if they can tell us how many of those mice have CCSVI? What, you say? They don't even have real MS? It's just a condition that's "like" MS? Oh. I see. What was that you said about evidence again, doc?

Sorry, I just never liked the science behind that theory as I see it as being flawed. Call me a mouse model naysayer.

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Postby jr5646 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:07 pm

JoyIsMyStrength wrote:Sorry, I just never liked the science behind that theory as I see it as being flawed. Call me a mouse model naysayer.


Yeah, they can't even replicate MS in mice properly... LOL Yet, out of compassion they "warn" against CCSVI treatment. You would think any Dr. would say at least try to treat and hope it helps.. if we were dying they would.. I guess MS isn't bad enough. ~pissed~

OK - what about this article?


Restenosis flared his symptoms again... How do they account for this? you can't blame that on placebo.. How did he know they stenosed again? did he guess? I guess he "conjured" up the symptoms of MS and it was all in his head...

I continue to go back to the crappy meds. for MS - nobody but us MS'ers question taking the ineffective nasty side effect stuff, while the pharmas laugh all the way to the bank.

Let us decide... the FDA says it's safe to stent/angio veins in other parts of the body.. what's the problem?
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Postby taxi » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:56 pm

I like the EAE model. The thinking goes like this:

1. MS might be an autoimmune disease;
2. Let's create an artificial autoimmune disease in mice and call it EAE;
3. EAE looks a bit like MS;
4. Therefore, MS is an autoimmune disease.

See? It all makes perfect sense. I can think of several diseases we could cure this way.

Nobody can deny that his line of thinking has been successful. Scientists have developed over 100 treatments for the disease, all of which are extremely effective. In fact, I'd say we've pretty much cured EAE.

I just don't know what you people are complaining about.
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Postby cah » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:06 pm

taxi wrote:I just don't know what you people are complaining about.

It's the name. It should be called EAT, "experimental autoimmune tautology".
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." Socrates
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Postby CureIous » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:42 pm

Only thing I wondered about was what took them so long? This was something that struck me about all the Buffalo news, as far as the %'s go, one can pretty much spin it either way, to the bad, to the good, to the indifferent. Depends on how much numbers twisting is going on. Imagine if the headline read: " new study confirms that 45% of MS patients are 100% proven to be immunological in nature".

This is the same thing that happened with Zamboni, whatever you wanted to see and take, that was what the Zamboni study said, regardless of whether the big picture was captured or not.

I think people that stick to any kind of hard numbers concerning this, either for or against are NOT helping MS patients. I think it sucks that SO many people just heard "95 95 95 95" until they could quote it verbatim, so what is it now, "55 55 55" or "62 62 62"? Oh until the next study level comes out, and we find out the number is really higher, up into the 80's?

Those numbers are meaningless for the individual, unless one can categorically state what side of the %'s that person falls on, with 100% certainty.

I like the spin though, they must do political headliners in their spare time lol.

Yet, we go on....
RRMS Dx'd 2007, first episode 2004. Bilateral stent placement, 3 on left, 1 stent on right, at Stanford August 2009. Watch my operation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwc6QlLVtko, Virtually symptom free since, no relap
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Postby Chuck123 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:47 pm

Hi Tims,
This article is written by a desperate newspaper chain owned by Canwest media in Canada. The National Post has LOST money every year since it was started by Conrad Black [who is now in prison in Florida ]. The Canwest chain is in bankruptcy protection and accordingly looking for sensational items to boost reader interest. Please TIMS members, do not become upset----the National Post is a non entity and will probably not be in existence in 12 months time.

Insofar as T. Blackwell/ T.Cocroran [his buddy in negativity] is concerned, they have been articulately rebutted by Joan Beal, and Dr. Ashto Embry. [See TIMS and CCSVI on facebook]

Of more concern to me are the loose cats in the yard, namely Dr Mark Freedman, Ottawa, Dr Metz, Calgary, and Dr. Marrie, Winnipeg. These folks still have postions of influence unfortunately, [hopefully not too much longer]

TIMS folks, have faith, it is all happening just as it should. Forget the nonsense from National Post.

Chuck 123
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Postby Billmeik » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:23 pm

I have a friend who is a cancer researcher and I spoke to him about funding an animal study. Replicating Putnam. He told me to talk to the vet schools.

Anybody got energy? I think rather than mice they should try to create MS in larger animals, say cows or pigs. Clamp their veins and see if they get MS.
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Postby tazbo » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:29 pm

I don't know of M.S. occurring in animals. Is this suppossed to make us believe they are safely researching in our best interests?
I think Dr. O'Connor has an agenda that precludes him from accepting anything not in his book.
I am sorry that M.S. might completely destroy me before we get to "time wounds all heels". ;-)
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Postby Cece » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:13 pm

Billmeik wrote:I have a friend who is a cancer researcher and I spoke to him about funding an animal study. Replicating Putnam.

Surely some vascular or neurological researcher out there is doing this? Were there plans to do this at Stanford?
"However, the truth in science ultimately emerges, although sometimes it takes a very long time," Arthur Silverstein, Autoimmunity: A History of the Early Struggle for Recognition
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Postby Sharon » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:31 pm

Something for the EAE mouse conversation:
At NYU, Dr. Zamboni stated that EAE does not produce stenoses in the large veins of the mice; Dr. Levine, known EAE researcher, stated the mice do develop small vessels similar to those found in MS patients. So, in theory, injecting the protein into the mice to create EAE causes small blood vessels to be formed. In MS patients, the stenoses in the large veins causes the small vessels to develop. Just another disconnect that is going to have to be researched.

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Postby weegie1 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:58 am

I want to standup for the Drs who use the EAE model.
These Drs have cured many of my friends and relatives.

M Mouse.
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Postby Johnson » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:48 am

Oh, my... I laughed. I snorted. I squealed with laughter. I was afraid to wake up my family - I laughed so loud. I especially liked cah's acronym - EAT. It somehow brought to mind Marie Antoinette, and elicited other sympathies for Freedman, Colin Whatever, and such.

Madame Antoinette's CCSVI was duly investigated. It was determined that she was a mouse, but did not have EAE. She did however, EAT too much cake.

Alas, poor Freedman... you are forsaken.

Incidentally, I do think of Lord Black of Crook Harbour from time to time - rotting in the Florida bayoux. Falling from Grace, and all that. Freedman! Are you reading? Corcoran! Are you holding the candle for Freedman? Who has Blackwell's back?
My name is not really Johnson. MSed up since 1993
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Postby Sotiris » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:46 am

Experimental allergic encephalomyelitis: A misleading model of multiple sclerosis. (full text)
:arrow: http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/Immunology ... ritque.pdf
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