New Study casts doubts over vein blockages in people with MS

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Training Indicated to Diagnose CCSVI

Postby Sotiris » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:49 am

Shayk wrote:[...]The full article is available (again thanks to Sotiris).

Thank you Sharon. Actually, the papers are available thanks to Prof. Zamboni’s team and Fondazione Hilarescere.
As regards the paper of the German team, they say that
The aim of this study was to (i) evaluate the ultrasound findings reported by Zamboniand co-workers suggesting a role of ‘CCSVI’ in the pathogenesis of MS, and (ii) to extend the studies they performed through acquisition of additional ultrasound indices such as blood volume flow (BVF) and internal jugular venous valve competence (Valsalva maneuvre) to more comprehensively evaluate the haemodynamic effects of any suspected cerebro-cervical venous congestion.

Their logic seems to be as follows: If there is a problem with reverse flow somewhere at the IJVs, the blood flow into the veins should be also disturbed. Therefore they check the flow “as apical as possible in the upper region of the neck close to the mandibular angle”. If there is no disturbance in the flow into the IJVs then there should be no problem even if there is a reversal downstream.
To refute their findings, flaws in their logic or methodology should be identified. A good point may be the one made by Dr. Sclafani and repeated in the previous post by Cheerleader.
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Postby costumenastional » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:09 am

While all these scientific posts are interesting, i really can't see the need to analyze the "why" and "how" some papers are opposed to the CCSVI theory.
I for one made my own small study when i was in Sofia, where 10 out of 10 patients who were hospitalized (myself included) during that week were found to have significant problems with their veins via catheter venography. Should i publish a paper?
After all, the dont seem to be ccsvi specialists either...
Anyway, we have all seen angioplasty videos, pictures etc which leave no room for doubts as far as CCSVI existence is concerned.

I remember that only a few months ago, scientists would not even talk about Zamboni's theory. Next step was to try to convince patients not to touch that "vein thing" without further research because people were dying from stents.
It is only logical now to see papers "proving" CCSVI wrong. I dont know if it s the last step and frankly i dont give a shit. All i know is that we wont give up without getting the answers we need. From those who claim that vascular pathology (already proven) has nothing to do with MS i wont take anything but actual proof. And this paper is far from anything like that. The only proof we have so far is that meds dont work. For those who claim that it may have something to do with our problems, let's just say that they are working on it in the best way possible.

Maybe we should focus on what else CCSVI research has to offer instead of wondering if it really exists. It exists alright.
Is it related with MS? Can liberation help us? To soon to tell for some of us, hopefully not so soon for others.
Maybe other veins play significant role in the CCSVI pathology, maybe new, more sophisticated equipment will help in directions that no doctor can imagine at this point. We should keep pushing for more research in directions other than the autoimmune model because there is no answer for us there.

As someone who had balloon angio in 4 places inside his jugs and azy correcting real flow issues with no obvious benefit so far i am now asking:
did it stop my progression? and if so, how the hell can i help my brain to detox from all kinds of wastes that make me feel like i do from time to time? Haacke has already shown everybody whats happening in our damn brains. I didn't hear anyone talking about cleaning that mess. Only new immunowhatever drugs are on the way. Like they ll do any good...
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Postby fernando » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:42 am

Same here Costume.

Small pilot study: 7 Msers (i'm one of them), 2 controls. Msers have abnormalities in a carefully done echo-doppler (Esaote machine), controls, nothing wrong. The doctor/technician (already a skillful professional with 15 years of experience) has been practicing during months.

I wonder if all these studies (including Buffalo and despite Zamboni's help) are not only looking for CCSVI BUT evaluating operator skills.

It is like saying (ok, exaggerating a little bit) , "Hey, we have this new type of microscope who nobody really knows how to operate and we want to use it to prove or disprove the existence a a new type of microscopic lifeform that nobody has seen before."

Good luck this Tuesday!
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Postby sbr487 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:19 am

costumenastional wrote:immunowhatever drugs are on the way. Like they ll do any good...

Since CCSVI has been making in roads, its only natural that lot of energy is being spent in studies to prove things otherwise. And then we are back to immune path .... for next decade ... i mean 50 years ... i mean 100 years ...
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Postby mshusband » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:23 am

That's where I think you're all wrong ... there is no going back from here. The patients wouldn't allow it. And if they tried, there would be riots in the streets ...

Going back will not happen with all the information out there now - all the studies starting, all the doctors who now believe in this. (don't you think that Neuro's are a bit upset that a doctor superior to them - an IR - who makes more money, and this that and the other is going to out-rank them again?).

The ball is rolling ... even if it's treated CCSVI along with some sort of drugs, there is no turning back.

People are still going to need neurologists for symptom relief - so I hope bridges aren't burned ... but the long-term effects on the drug companies for people needing CRABS is going to be quite different ...
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Postby L » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:35 am

We had statins+ Copaxone, I'm sure that soon we'll have CCSVI treatment + Copaxone combination trial..
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I put more stock in overwhelming Testimony

Postby Blight » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:34 am

We can wait decades for the endless studies or we can treat the injured now. If the testimony is a result of the placebo effect (remote possibility) we will know soon enough.
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Re: I put more stock in overwhelming Testimony

Postby Loobie » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:55 am

Blight wrote:We can wait decades for the endless studies or we can treat the injured now. If the testimony is a result of the placebo effect (remote possibility) we will know soon enough.

That is a very good statement.
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Postby Leonard » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:59 am

This thread started with the negative results of Berlin tests.
As was already said, that was essentially old news.
In the meantime, it seems that in Germany things are moving as well: ... =836569985
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Postby 1eye » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:12 am

as Google sees it:

Venous insufficiency in the brain found on MS

MS patients appear to have an abnormal venous blood flow in the brain. That is suggested modern imaging techniques. Whether the problems are the effects of MS or influence the course of MS is still unclear.

By Martin Wiehl

Venous insufficiency in the brain found on MS

Model of the brain vessels. Clearly, in MS patients also disturbed the venous blood flow in the brain.

© Sebastian Kaulitzki /

TORONTO. Clearly show both extracranial as well as intracranial veins of people with MS to significant changes. Then two groups of researchers from Italy and the USA have drawn attention. The disturbances, which they describe as chronic venous insufficiency, cerebro (CCSVI) could, in part only now be made visible by newer imaging techniques. The observations of a stir at the Congress of the American Neurological Society (AAN) in Toronto a lot of attention and were discussed extensively.
Reduced venous volume in the brains of MS patients

Basically, the total volume of the intracranial veins seems to be reduced. This includes especially the smallest veins. Moreover, it is presumed that MS patients have a chronic venous outflow obstruction caused by stenosis in the extracranial head veins. This will probably turn to a decreased perfusion of the brain tissue. Third, the venous outflow obstruction appears with a reflux into the cerebral veins einherzugehen. This will in turn have an increased iron deposition in the brain result. Corresponding to these venous flow anomalies suggest further investigation, that the cerebro-spinal CSF flow in the Sylvius Aqueduct is disturbed.

To capture the venous vascularization of the parenchyma, the researchers used an MRI-variant, Susceptibility-Weighted Imaging (SWI). This allows cerebral veins represent directly by the oxygenation of venous blood is used. A working group of Dr. Guy U. Poloni from Buffalo in the United States had applied the method in 62 MS patients and 33 healthy volunteers. They measured not only the total volume of the cerebral veins, but used it in relation to the total brain mass, head size and brain atrophy to turn off as disturbances. Overall, the total venous in MS patients by nearly 20 percent was lower (67.5 versus 82.7 ml) than was in the healthy, and the venous volume per brain mass is reduced by the same magnitude. The largest deviations were observed in veins less than 0.9 mm in diameter. Overall, the researchers placed near the findings of a severe impairment of the venous system in the brain-MS patients.

Similar conclusions were also an Italian group led by Professor Paolo Zamboni came from Ferrara in Italy. The Angiologist had in 16 patients with relapsing-remitting MS and eight healthy subjects first venous hemodynamics hirnableitender extracranial vessels as the internal jugular vein by Doppler ultrasound study. In all 16 MS patients, he found a venous insufficiency and venous back, but in none of the participants without MS.

Furthermore, all participants were examined with a further MRI procedure, the perfusion-weighted imaging (PWI). This in different brain areas of the cerebral blood flow, blood volume and mean transit time was recorded and analyzed separately. The result: The stronger the venous insufficiency in Sono was, the stronger was measured by PWI intracerebral perfusion disturbed. This correlation occurred in all regions of the parenchyma of MS patients and was particularly noticeable in the thalamus, caudate nucleus, putamen, hippocampus and nucleus accumbens.
With increased venous insufficiency of iron in lesions

In the same study population, the working group also used the SWI to detect increased iron deposits in the brains of MS patients. It was finally suggested that elevated cerebral venous reflux may contribute to such a rise. The iron concentrations were measured in different brain regions, and thereby also in T1-and T2-weighted lesions. It turned out that MS patients with marked impairment of the jugular veins actually also had a high iron load in the lesions. The stronger the venous insufficiency, the more iron was in the lesions. This is also clinically significant: So other researchers found that high iron concentrations in the gray matter associated with a marked degree of disability.

First, the findings should also be reproduced by other groups, said the AAN. Then could you clarify what importance the neurological venous anomalies have generally, and in what context they relate to the autoimmune process in MS.
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