CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 5:59 am

NZer1 wrote:...My personal experience tells me that bacteria do infect injury sites of the spine and treating the infection aggravates those sites...


My professional experience is that I treated thousands of low back cases including severe strains, sprains and herniated disc, as well as intestinal colic, menstrual cramps, kidney stones, pregnant female etc. Not one of them needed surgery or antibiotics. On the other hand, I treated many cases of dysmenorrhea, colon and kidney problems caused by over use of antibiotics.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby David1949 » Wed May 08, 2013 8:49 am

Dr. Flanagan
When I lay down flat on my back I can raise my left leg by bending it from the hip with the knee straight, until my foot is at least 3ft above the floor. But when I'm standing I can barely raise my foot 6 inches off the floor. Is there any explaination for that in terms of my spinal cord and brain?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 10:29 am

Straight leg raising is a combination of the four quadriceps and the iliopsoas muscle. It could be due to the different muscles you recruit while lying down versus those you use while standing. Standing strength also recquires synergistic strength and balance from the standing leg, which can make the one you are attempting to raise weak. Muscle tests can isolate and determine the ones that are causing the weak.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed May 08, 2013 11:45 am

Thanks Dr F.
The way I look at this picture indicates that if the patient is in a general health condition where bacteria are thriving then the likelihood of infection where injury occurs and where infected immune cells gravitate is high.
If the injury site becomes a host area for bacteria then 'healing' the injury is going to be difficult because of the added problems associated with infection.
The study talks about a percentage of patients with bacterial involvement in chronic spine injury which makes logical sense, any injury around the body will be compounded by infection.

If diet, stress-ors, exercise, mindfulness etc are in balance it is 'normal' to see an acute injury heal, tip the balance the other way and acute soon becomes chronic!

Dr F what is it about the co-incidence of bacterial involvement in your theory that challenges you much?

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Wed May 08, 2013 12:17 pm

dr. flanagan, guess what! the sec. of chiro. called today. he says no new patients because he may be going for elbow surgery-6 to 8 wk. recovery then possible hip surgery. i couldn't help but wonder if my state of impairment and mentioned getting onto the table might have something to do with it. although i did tell her that my brother is a big strong man and would assit if needed. sooo, that's the luck of the irish today. %%- :sad:
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 1:02 pm

Blossom,
I can't believe it. Hang in there. Call the Cox website and find out if they know any doctors who purchased the model 7 or 8 table in your area. You can also call chiropractic offices in your area and see if anyone has a Cox 7 or 8, a Williams-Zenith 100 with flexion-distraction headpiece, or a Hill Labs AirFlex Flexion-distraction table with FD headpiece.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed May 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Nigel,
If a mason gets severe sciatica after lifting a one hundred pound bag of cement are you suggesting he should be put on a course of antibiotics for treatment? If he gets well after several weeks on the course of antiobiotics and has an exacerbation of the sciatica while bending over to tie his shoelaces three months later because the herniated disc is still there, should he be put on another course of antibiotics. How about rotator cuff tears or tears in the meniscus of the knees? Are they due to bacterial infections as well? Has anyone even done any studies yet. Should we check all musculoskeletal injuries for possible presence of bacteria? I'll bet if we start looking we will find much more. Should the many millions of people with helicobacter pylori be on AB's even if they are perfectly healthy and have no signs of symptoms? Parkinson's has been associated with helicobacter pylori. Do you think helicobacter pylori causes PD or that the dysautonomic and decreased intestinal motiltiy associated with PD causes the increase in bacteria?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed May 08, 2013 2:30 pm

uprightdoc wrote:Nigel,
If a mason gets severe sciatica after lifting a one hundred pound bag of cement are you suggesting he should be put on a course of antibiotics for treatment? If he gets well after several weeks on the course of antiobiotics and has an exacerbation of the sciatica while bending over to tie his shoelaces three months later because the herniated disc is still there, should he be put on another course of antibiotics. How about rotator cuff tears or tears in the meniscus of the knees? Are they due to bacterial infections as well? Has anyone even done any studies yet. Should we check all musculoskeletal injuries for possible presence of bacteria? I'll bet if we start looking we will find much more. Should the many millions of people with helicobacter pylori be on AB's even if they are perfectly healthy and have no signs of symptoms? Parkinson's has been associated with helicobacter pylori. Do you think helicobacter pylori causes PD or that the dysautonomic and decreased intestinal motiltiy associated with PD causes the increase in bacteria?


Edited for clarity, my bacterial fog is high at present,

Dr F I don't hear your point,
I hear that you are anti drugs,
I also don't believe you want to consider the possibility that there can be a co-incidence of bacterial infection at the same time, in these examples of the studies, as having a lower back spinal injury that causes pain,
I also hear you interpret what is being said in the articles that I posted using the extrapolation that bacteria are being called cause in all musculoskeletal injuries involving pain, and there is suggestion of ABx treatment for everything.


Have I understood your comment?

I haven't seen any statement that the bacteria presence and the injury presence are connected in a cause context, purely co-incidence of existence.
What I understood was that they had investigated and found bacteria within the damaged/herniated disc and then experimented with ABx treatment versus not treated and found statistically relevant results. The pain management was the focus of their investigation.

Regards,
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu May 09, 2013 1:38 am

Nigel,
Does the presense of bacteria always indicate that there is an active infection? Did the doctors consider or compare safer more effective alternative methods of treating chronic low back pain other than the antibiotic approach? Are they even aware of other equally if not more effective methods used by other health care professionals for treating low back pain? Do you think that restoring motion to the swollen segment can help move blood, lymph and CSF and clear out inflammation, edema and pathogens such as bacteria? Antibiotics work well. Unfortunately, because of doctors, veterinarians and farmers over using them we now have problems with many resistant strains of bacteria, as well as antibiotics in our water and food supply. Are you suggesting we put many millions more people on antibiotics based on a barely tested theory, a questionable diagnosis and with so many risks to the patient and society? Don't you think it would be better to test the theory on a small scale first?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu May 09, 2013 4:03 am

Blossom,
It's very disappointing to known that such a fine piece of equipment is so close and unavailable for treating you. The links below are to Hill Labs and Williams Manufacturing compaines. These companies produce high quality flexion-distraction tables similar to the Cox 7 and 8 models with FD cervical sections.

http://vimeo.com/14401346
http://www.hilllabs.com/chiropractic/
http://www.williamshealthcare.com/100-zenithfullspineflexiondistractionelevation.aspx

If you feel up to it, in addition to calling local chiropractic offices to see if they have any of these three types of tables, you could also call the manufactures to see if they can provide you with names of clinics in your area that have purchased one.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby vesta » Thu May 09, 2013 10:08 am

Hi Blossom
I suggest you make an appointment without saying anything about the problems they might have with your disability. Show up with your brother who will help move you out of the wheelchair onto the table. I think that Chiropractor is lying. In general I never say I have MS, just say I have back problems and someone suggested I get a treatment with the table you want. Whenever I mention MS a group think therapist/Doctor goes into panic attack. Don't be apologetic, be assertive and go with someone (your brother for instance) who will help you. I'd even get a woman friend to make an appointment with the same Chiropractor and show up and then see what Mr bad elbow has to say. (Well, maybe it's true, but I have my doubts.) The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Give yourself a fighting chance to heal.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Thu May 09, 2013 11:25 am

Thanks Dr F, please keep in mind that I am not the one who is doing the studies and writing articles to media.
I am the one who is asking questions in all directions because I have a known bacterial infection and I also have dis-abilities.
When I find studies like this I don't know what has driven the researchers to the point of publishing their data, so like anyone out there I am looking for answers.
It is not my intention to change your thinking, it is my intention to understand what your opinions are on matters such as this lower back pain study, and why you have come to those opinions so I can learn what I need to do for my Health.

:)
Nigel
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby cheerleader » Thu May 09, 2013 11:38 am

Hi Dr. F--

I think you'll find this new study from Serbia quite interesting---
Conclusion Our data indicate that extravascular compression of the extracranial venous pathway is frequent in multiple sclerosis patients with chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency, and that it is mainly due to compression caused by transverse processus of cervical vertebrae. Further studies are needed to evaluate potential clinical implications of this phenomenon.

http://phl.sagepub.com/content/early/20 ... 8.abstract

also--I'm 3 weeks past my AO treatment by a local doctor recommended to me by Dr. Rosa. (I've had spondylosis from C2-7, migraine, dizziness, neck pain for many years) My atlas was rotated by several degrees, and since adjustment, I'm headache and dizziness free, and my neck no longer has sore spots. To say I'm a believer might be an understatement :)
thanks,
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby blossom » Thu May 09, 2013 1:23 pm

hi vesta, yes you are right. you'd think after all these yrs. of playing this game i would have learned and not let my guard down. i've pretty much done as you've said in many instances especially with neurosurgeons but other dr.'s too. i't's funny you mentioned having a friend call. i was discussing that with a friend last night. let her make the appt. and me show up. but, i think i'll let dead dogs lie because one thing that i can still use very well is my mouth and i would not have anything very nice to say to him or about him if i do find for a fact he's still taking new patients. but, depending, maybe i will try that. i have to give it a few days to recoop from the sting of another slap in the face.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Thu May 09, 2013 1:57 pm

My opinion is that it sounds like the bacterial theory and intensive antibiotic treatment appears to work and needs further research and trial. The doctors who did the study agree that considering our current problems with ABs we need to be cautious about recommending them for low back pain. Orthopedic surgeons mostly manage low back pain with pills and a little physical therapy. They ignored chiropractic care. There are many safe and very effective options for treating low back pain used by chiropractors that should be tried before surgery or antibiotics.
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