CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:49 pm

Interesting that Joan linked a thread this morning that 'may' be related to what you are saying vesta

"Cerebrospinal fluid needs to move quickly through the brain to keep it healthy. What happens when the venous system is malformed or damaged? The brain cannot be drained properly. Neurodegenerative disease is the result."
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... =notify_me

;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:13 pm

Hello Vesta,
It sounds to me a though the neuro was referring to transverse myeliitis. You probably have lesions in the cord but not transverse myelitis lesions which typically cover several segments of the spine.

I am very familiar with different types of deep tissue massage such as Rolfing, Shiatsu and Tui Na to name a few. In addition to healing, Tui Na is related to Dim Mak and is used in martial arts for inflicting pain and death. All massages move fluids, which contain nutrients and wastes. In additon to moving nutrients and wastes, deep tissue massage breaks up myofascial adhesions which can help relieve or correct musculoskeletal disorders. Massage is simply one of many useful tools. The choice of tools used to correct and control neurodegnerative conditions should be based on the findings in the case. There are many issues involved in neurodegeneraive conditions that deep tissue massage won't make a dent in.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:08 pm

NZer1 wrote:Interesting that Joan linked a thread this morning that 'may' be related to what you are saying vesta

"Cerebrospinal fluid needs to move quickly through the brain to keep it healthy...


The problem is obstruction to CSF flow. CSF doesn't move quickly. The proper movement of CSF between the cranial vault and spinal canal should be determined by pressure gradients and need not speed.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:11 pm

uprightdoc wrote:
NZer1 wrote:Interesting that Joan linked a thread this morning that 'may' be related to what you are saying vesta

"Cerebrospinal fluid needs to move quickly through the brain to keep it healthy...


The problem is obstruction to CSF flow. CSF doesn't move quickly. The proper movement of CSF between the cranial vault and spinal canal should be determined by pressure gradients and need not speed.


Joan's words DR F.

Are there ways of measuring this movement, or is it another understudied Life issue?

I put the word out that your brother is digging/drilling around and that the Locals should leave him be as he won't taste very good!

;)
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:17 am

It's difficult to measure CSF flow in general never mind regional flows in the brain. CSF flows at different rates in different compartments of the brain and cord. Some researchers break the brain down into three compartments which is a start but overly simplistic. The permeability of the blood brain barrier and CSF flow rate also increases with upright posture and movement. Currently Cine flow studies can be roughly determined by measuring changes in volume of CSF spaces over time but the imaging slices are limited to very small sections.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:59 am

Dr Flanagan. I have come to understand my problem much more thanks to you. The other day I tried something and was surprised with what happened. I tucked my chin into my chest, and noticed within a minute, sensations returning to normal in my body allowing me to move my head better. I now realize why I get worse as the day proceeds, I am at my desktop computer, looking up, making the cervical lordosis more severe. Also, to stand up, I lean forward, rounding my spine, my chin tucked in, and put my head on one side of my knees, stay in this position for a minute and then I am able to stand up and transfer myself. If I do not do this I cannot lift myself 1 inch off my W/C or the toilet etc. The chiro that is treating me says my spine becomes compressed again after treatment. I see the reason for this is I can no longer sleep in a bed and sleep in a recliner. This causes my spine to compress again. I wish they was a treatment clinic I could stay at and get treated. What can I do to for this sleeping/position problem?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby vesta » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:54 am

Hello Nigel: Thanks for the post. I think the issue is uninhibited circulation of fluid (blood, CSF) in general rather than the speed.

Dr Flanagan, do you think that spinal cord lesions are caused by a "blood reflux" in MS? If not, then what damages the cord? Thanks

Would inclined bed therapy help dania, presuming she can manage it?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:38 am

Dania,
If you can afford one, an adjustable bed with good pillows would help.

Vesta,
I think that violent venous and CSF backjets due to trauma such as whiplash as proposed by Dr. Schelling is a possible cause of the supratentorial, periventricular and perivenular lesions seen in MS. Chronic ischemia, edema and increased CSF volume due to poor drainage are other causes. Lesions can also be caused by autoimmune-inflammatory conditions and infections.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby vesta » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:48 am

Thank you. Would the following help dania? (from AndrewKFletcher shown on CCSVI thread.)

"Find us on Facebook.com/InclinedBedTherapy
IBT website: http://inclinedbedtherapy.com"
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:26 am

I didn't recommend the bed for IBT purposes. IBT primarly affects venous blood flow through the jugluar veins. It has no impact on venous drainage into the VVP during upright posture or the bidiretional flow of CSF between the cranial vault and spinal canal while recumbent or upright. Likewise, it won't help blood or CSF flow problems caused by Chiari malformations, spondylosis, stenosis, scoliosis, kyphosis, excess lordosis, hypoplasia of the posterior fossa, platybasia, craniocervical junction malformations and misalignements, vascular anomolies etc. Some patients with dysautonmia get hypotension or tachcardia when they are upright and hypertension when they lie down so it is unlikely that they will benefit from IBT.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 am

So, I just had a shower and did my little trick to stand up, I leaned forward, rounding my spine, my chin tucked in, and put my head on one side of my knees, stayed in this position for a minute and VOILA... up in a second and straight as an arrow! The woman who helps me, her jaw nearly hit the floor! She could not believe what she saw!
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:53 am

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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby uprightdoc » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:32 pm

What a terrific approach. It looks like the procedure, however, is limited to the lumbar spine due to the absence of the cord. Other endoscopic procedure are used for the cervical and thoracic spine. Although surgeons can do more than one segment endoscopically during a procedure, it usually requires additional openings and relocating thier equipment so they don't work on more than two segments at a time. Some patients I have seen have many bad segments of the spine. I haven't seen enough images of your spine or physically examined you to determine if the procedure is worth considering.
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby dania » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:36 pm

uprightdoc wrote:What a terrific approach. It looks like the procedure, however, is limited to the lumbar spine due to the absence of the cord. Other endoscopic procedure are used for the cervical and thoracic spine. Although surgeons can do more than one segment endoscopically during a procedure, it usually requires additional openings and relocating thier equipment so they don't work on more than two segments at a time. Some patients I have seen have many bad segments of the spine. I haven't seen enough images of your spine or physically examined you to determine if the procedure is worth considering.
What about for Blossom? Her bone spurs?
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Re: CCSVI and CCVBP

Postby NZer1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:51 pm

uprightdoc wrote:It's difficult to measure CSF flow in general never mind regional flows in the brain. CSF flows at different rates in different compartments of the brain and cord. Some researchers break the brain down into three compartments which is a start but overly simplistic. The permeability of the blood brain barrier and CSF flow rate also increases with upright posture and movement. Currently Cine flow studies can be roughly determined by measuring changes in volume of CSF spaces over time but the imaging slices are limited to very small sections.


WoW what a productive busy thread to wake up to :)

Dr F the key thing that I 'hear' regarding the CSF is the lymphatic 'effect' if I have used the right term.
Having altered flow of CSF seems to basically have two functions chemically. Good in and bad out.
Yes there are the support of brain tissue etc, etc, etc as well.
From the perspective of degenerative diseases I get the impression that the transfer of 'products' is the key function that relates to 'many' symptoms we identify with.
When foreign 'products', systems such as the immune cells and life forms like bacteria enter the CSF then we appear to become symptomatic?

If the flow could be mapped and averaged by a program then there would be insight and potential guidance for comparisons?

Again Dr Haacke, when he has a spare minute?

;)
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