Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby NZer1 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:00 pm

We can read many studies and opinions on NO and most of my reading has said that NO is made in the endothelial layer of the vessels.

If people are in sunlight then there is more than sun light having an effect on the persons health.

The attitude and other inputs of mental origin are very important in wellness and this seems to be forgotten or avoided by research. If you are out doors in the sun then there are hundreds of factors that are influencing body functions. Vit D or sun light are a fraction of the picture!

Synergy is more than a word!

;)
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby 1eye » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:19 pm

I would argue that this process is not divorced from Vitamin D


We can read many studies and opinions on NO and most of my reading has said that NO is made in the endothelial layer of the vessels.


Human skin contains large stores of nitrite (NO2) and nitrate (NO3). The researchers note that while nitrate is "biologically inert", the action of sunlight can reduce it to active nitrite and nitric oxide (NO).


I expect there is a more complex chemical description, but I think that's what they were trying to prove.http://www.thisisms.com/forum/chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic22308.html
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GOAL is Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood.

Postby MarkW » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:02 am

When I was a management consultant a skill I used was looking at the big picture but keeping my team focussed on our goal.
GOAL is Vitamin D3>125nmol/L min in blood
I have posted earlier in this thread that sunshine is the best way a achieve this. However, for most people with MS this is not achievable as they live too far from the equator or cannot go out in the sun due to their MS (heat fatigue).
For most pwMS the simplest way to get blood levels above 125nmol/L is to take a naturally derived D3 supplement.
Yes Jimmylegs some pwMS will need essential minerals to achieve 125nmol/L and the best way to get these is through diet. However, many people find taking a supplement easier than a complete change in ones diet.
The big picture says pwMS with Vit D3 > 125nmol/L do better than pwMS with D3 < 50nmol/L. Exactly why this appears to be true is yet to be understood. Most pwMS can achieve Vit D3 > 125nmol/L by using supplements costing less than 10 USD cents a day. My advice is simple get to the goal using the easiest way for you.
GOAL is Vitamin D3>125nmol/L min in blood
Kind regards,
MarkW

PS Studies of pwMS with D3 above 80nmol/L are not valid as this D3 level is sub-optimal for pwMS.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby 1eye » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:40 am

Plus if people already have enough vitamin D, how much sunshine they get isn't so important. It is only while they are out in the sun, and for about an hour after, that there is more nitric oxide. But using the smooth muscle more often to do this dilation seems to have an effect on mortality. So sun is more important for everybody than adequate D is for "MS"/CCSVI. I sometimes forget that "MS" does not necessarily mean early death.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:00 am

true true mark
potent whole food sources (in descending order) for the necessary zinc include oysters, crab, veal liver, beef, lamb, shrimp and scallops.
any zinc supplement should have copper in it to prevent copper depletion. a 50 zn to 2 cu ratio seems to work best in supplements.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-1.html?

great idea to use these resources above to look up magnesium too. intake from all sources should be 400mg/d to comfortably meet daily recommendations re basic needs, plus another couple hundred to deal with the vit D. if a supplement is required magnesium glycinate is highly soluble and absorbable without the GI side effects seen in other forms like oxide.

if you have ms, your status in all three of these nutrients is these is likely not great, so if you high dose d3 - and particularly if you feel worse over time - zinc and mag could be things to take a very close look at.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:38 pm

Study says low vit D increases risk of development of MS.
My simple answer: increase D3 in everyone with CIS to > 125nmol/L.
MarkW

Mult Scler. 2013 Jul 8. [Epub ahead of print]
Vitamin D levels and risk of multiple sclerosis in patients with clinically isolated syndromes.
Martinelli V, Dalla Costa G, Colombo B, Dalla Libera D, Rubinacci A, Filippi M, Furlan R, Comi G.
Department of Neurology, San Raffaele Hospital, Milan, Italy.


Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Growing evidence suggests that vitamin D deficiency may be one of the most important environmental factors for the development of multiple sclerosis (MS).

OBJECTIVES:
The objectives of this paper are to evaluate serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D) levels in patients with clinically isolated syndromes (CIS) and to examine whether they are related to MS risk.

METHODS:
This is a retrospective study of 100 CIS patients hospitalized from 2000 to 2009 at San Raffaele Hospital, Milan, Italy. We evaluated baseline 25(OH)D level as well as clinical, brain magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) data.

RESULTS:
A total of 52% of CIS patients had vitamin D deficiency (25(OH)D < 50 nmol/l). During follow-up (median: 7.17 years), 55 patients developed clinically definite MS (CDMS). Patients with very low (< 10th percentile) and low (< 25th percentile) 25(OH)D levels were particularly at risk of CDMS (HRs (95% CIs): 2.12 (0.91-4.96) and 1.61 (0.85-3.03), respectively), while no further reduction in the HRs of disease was observed at high levels of 25(OH)D. This association was even stronger after adjustment for additional risk factors for CDMS development (HRs (95% CIs) for 25(OH)D levels < 10th and 25th percentiles: 3.34 (1.32-8.45) and 2.04 (0.96-4.36), respectively).

CONCLUSION:
Low serum vitamin D is associated with increased MS risk in patients with CIS.

KEYWORDS:
Multiple sclerosis, natural history studies, risk factors in epidemiology, vitamin D

PMID: 23836877
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:23 am

1eye wrote:Plus if people already have enough vitamin D, how much sunshine they get isn't so important. It is only while they are out in the sun, and for about an hour after, that there is more nitric oxide. But using the smooth muscle more often to do this dilation seems to have an effect on mortality. So sun is more important for everybody than adequate D is for "MS"/CCSVI.

Hello 1eye,
You start this with a big "if". The best source of vit D3 is sunshine. However most humans do not get sufficient sunshine to produce a blood level of > 125nmol/L. If people go out in the sun they use sunscreen (factor 8 or above) which blocks the light needed to produce vit D3 so little D3 is produced. I have not seen data on the impact of sunscreens on the ability of skin to convert nitric oxide, please post this on the NO thread if you have info.
I disagree with you when you post "sun is more important for everybody than adequate D is for "MS"/CCSVI." We know that Vit D3 > 125nmol/L is beneficial for pwMS but NO requirements for the general population is not as fully documented. I suggest that sun is beneficial for pwMS for lots of reasons and producing D3 is by far the best documented.
Kind regards,
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:27 am

Source URL: http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/ar ... 7/fulltext
DOI: 10.1016/j.mayocp.2013.05.011
Journal Title: Mayo Clinic Proceedings
Journal Date: July 2013
Journal Issue: 7
Journal Volume: 88
Journal First Page: 720
Abstract URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.govhttp://www.m ... 7/abstract
Article Title: Vitamin D for Health: A Global Perspective

Conclusion

Vitamin D deficiency is a common underdiagnosed condition that has received increasing attention in the world. The US Endocrine Society guidelines and the IOM recommend screening only in populations at risk, as no evidence currently exists to support screening at a population level. Candidates for vitamin D screening include those who are at specific risk for vitamin D deficiency and patients who are experiencing or are at risk for specific medical conditions associated with hypovitaminosis D.

Recent evidence from hundreds of studies has suggested that vitamin D is important for reducing the risk of a variety of chronic illnesses. The identification of a VDR in most tissues and cells and the observation that a multitude of genes may be directly or indirectly regulated by 1,25(OH)2D have provided a rationale for the nonskeletal health benefits of vitamin D. A study in healthy adults who received either 400 or 2000 IU/d of vitamin D3 for 3 months in winter reported that 291 genes were either up-regulated or down-regulated. That these genes affected as many as 80 different metabolic pathways (from immune modulation to enhanced antioxidant activity) emphasizes the importance of improving the world's vitamin D status.17 The observation that 1,25(OH)2D may also influence epigenetics provides additional support for the concept that there is no downside to increasing the vitamin D status of children and adults. Vitamin D deficiency during pregnancy may adversely influence placental development and fetal programming. Vitamin D deficiency in both parents may influence adverse pregnancy outcomes and susceptibility to developing disease in adult life and even into the next generation.

There is potentially a great upside (in terms of improving overall health and well-being) to increasing serum 25(OH)D levels above 30 ng/mL[70 nmol/L]. An effective strategy to prevent vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency is to obtain some sensible sun exposure, ingest foods that contain vitamin D, and take a vitamin D supplement.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby NZer1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:19 pm

Hi Ed, what does this part of the article mean?

"no evidence currently exists to support screening at a population level"?

It would seem that they don't really know what is ideal and that they are assuming that Vit D has an effect if it is low and it sounds like they don't know whether Vit D is more than co-factor with or without influence or significance on a disease commencing?

:)
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:39 pm

NZer1 wrote:Hi Ed, what does this part of the article mean?

"no evidence currently exists to support screening at a population level"?

It would seem that they don't really know what is ideal and that they are assuming that Vit D has an effect if it is low and it sounds like they don't know whether Vit D is more than co-factor with or without influence or significance on a disease commencing?

:)
Nigel
They are saying there is insufficient evidence to warrant checking everyone's Vitamin D level, but more than enough to check it for certain groups such as pwMS, diabetics, during pregnancy, early childhood, elderly and so on, just not everyone unless they have an identified risk factor linked to vitamin D.

Here's the article link unmodified by the software here.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby NZer1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 pm

Thanks Ed,
" just not everyone unless they have an identified risk factor linked to vitamin D."
I see the words risk factor and or co-incidence and co-factor used in most studies of degenerative disease and have talked to many of the top people in MS and they are non committal on the risk factors and speak of them as red herrings.
So when I see these statistical findings or mathematical equations I often wonder whether Science has come to a dead end with the singular thinking of one item influencing degenerative diseases and realising that it is very complex and requires many factors and many combinations that can also contradict each other, often.

;)
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:45 pm

"like"
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:25 pm

NZer1 wrote:I see the words risk factor and or co-incidence and co-factor used in most studies of degenerative disease and have talked to many of the top people in MS and they are non committal on the risk factors and speak of them as red herrings.
So when I see these statistical findings or mathematical equations I often wonder whether Science has come to a dead end with the singular thinking of one item influencing degenerative diseases and realising that it is very complex and requires many factors and many combinations that can also contradict each other, often.

;)
Nigel
Nigel, first we need to change your screen name to Antipodean Skeptic. :>)

The reason scientists talk about risk factors and not absolute cause and effect is that you can't stick a bunch of people in a laboratory and do a controlled experiment that may require decades. Instead, you look at correlations which show you things that are related, but not necessarily causal.

I don't think anyone speaks of a single risk factor. It may well take several causes for a disease to become clinical.

Think for a moment about vomiting which is a sign of a problem, a symptom. It can be caused by many things, some acting unilaterally, others requiring multiple factors.

How is it a red herring to acknowledge that many things can be causally related to vomiting, or MS? Unless you put people in a lab and subject them to food poisoning, you can only speak of risk factors, not absolute cause and effect.

Take a known correlation of MS, living in high latitudes. We know the correlation, a statistical link between where you live and the likelihood of getting MS. There can be a number of ways that latitude could cause things to go wrong. Some theories can be tested in various ways to see if there are other correlations, ie, sun exposure, vitamin D levels, throw in smoking, drinking, winter birth month and so on. We know that some people living in northern latitudes do not get MS so we know with certainty that more than one factor has to be involved in its development.

The fact that we can't lock a group of people up in northern latitudes and directly test these theories is obvious so we are left with statistical correlations that shed some light on what may be happening.

But that's not a reason to toss out the baby with the bath water. It is fine to be skeptical, but you can't just dismiss the evidence, even though it may not be a directly measurable cause and effect that can be reproduced in the lab and show direct causality.

And again, I don't see anyone zeroing in on a single explanation for a chronic disease at this point. Asserting that is a true red herring because it simply is not true.

Ed
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby NZer1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:02 pm

Ed your probably right about the screen name, lets work on that shall we! :)

I think the main thrust is that we need to acknowledge that no one knows what MS is!

There are many mimics and there are many mis-dx'ed people at each end of the extreme and a large grey area in the middle.

The vascular findings and the auto-immune concept have highlighted the ignorance that has rolled along, fuelled by the Money Markets/Big Pharma!

Now that the box MS was born in has been incinerated, there appears out of the ashes to be many symptoms in the mix that may actually be separate from the lead MS concepts of old. Lets keep thinking outside the box! :)

For example Trauma and Injury sources of the disease onset, bacterial infections, vascular malformations, are independent from the previous list of 'co-incidences' that happen in MS.

So what is MS and how does Vit D have a part to play in the disease or the symptoms and most importantly when is the most impacting time for Vit D supplementing to be of use to a PwMS?

Critics seem to be peeling away layers of assumptions and finding what exists under the surface, imo!

;)
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby NZer1 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:49 pm

Imagine from a slightly different angle defining what 'genetic MS' is and then looking at the rest!
I think that no matter what this will move MS forward.
So far for instance on the International List of 'MS' co-incidence factors, injury or trauma, bacterial infections, vascular malformations, and spinal alignment don't appear! The incidence of things like smoking does? The incidence of diet does? The incidence of Vit D does?
So why are things that are incidences or mathematical stats more important than things that are concrete?

"The result is a so-called gene expression pattern. The scientists saw discernable differences between the pattern formed by a set of 31 genes in MS patients and the same set from individuals without the disease. (These candidates were culled from a larger set of several thousand genes whose expression patterns Aune’s team had previously associated with autoimmune disease in general.)


Samples of human blood. Courtesy of GrahamColm via Wikimedia Commons.
The results suggest that doctors could analyze blood for readouts from these genes to determine whether or not an individual has MS. Aune’s work so far suggests that the test identifies true cases of MS more than 90 percent of the time and has a similar success rate in ruling out the disease in patients who don’t have it. “We can compare MS patients to controls and to patients with other neurological disorders and easily split them apart from both,” Aune says. In a follow-up study, as yet unpublished, the researchers matched unique gene expression profiles to different stages of MS, suggesting that his test may also reveal how far the disease has progressed in an individual."
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/str ... rom-blood/

:)
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