Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. Info for pwMS

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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby THX1138 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:47 pm

But, it is relevant in that sufficient magnesium is needed get one's " Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS"
And then there is the affect Vitamin D/Hormone D has on one's magnesium. There won't be much stepping if one gets spastic enough.

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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:11 pm

oh it's absolutely relevant wrt vit D3, but we weren't really discussing the connection any more were we.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby THX1138 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:28 pm

That is a distinct possibility. :-O
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:32 pm

well you've brought it back around to the point now so good :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby muse » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:49 pm

A FB buddy told me that one of my public FB-notes is circulating on TIMS, so just a short reply regarding proper Mg-testing.

---Mg-Serum tests are pretty worthless. Period.---

Best Arne p.s. ...better to open a new thread to discuss the topic because it's complex.

“...Just 1% of the body’s Mg is circulating in our blood stream. The rest is hidden in our body tissue (60% in the bones 39% in soft tissue like heart, brain, liver, kidney, glands, & muscles with highest concentration in the ventricles of the heart) and the body will do EVERYTHING (until it’s to late/heart attack) to keep this level!
There can even exist a 'Mg-paradox' if you are already highly deficient in this mineral but a simple blood test will come up with a ‘to much’ in blood serum. This shows only that your clever body is desperately trying everything to prevent the worse case scenario (heart attack) by sucking up minerals from your bones/teeth/brain etc. to support the vital body functions....”

https://www.facebook.com/notes/arne-kaminsky/magnesium-therapy-the-basics/10151818332796987
"MS" doesn't exist! - CCSVI dx Nov.2009, 1. angio LVJ & RVJ June 2010, 2. angio RVJ April 2011, January 2012 2. restenosis, reversed after ~1 year intake of high dosage Magnesium only. ThisIsCCSVIinMS: http://tinyurl.com/nwy5x58
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:07 am

i think we just had this discussion above... and the site does have a dedicated magnesium topic
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:49 am

jimmylegs wrote:i consider the passing mention of multimineral use only in the context of those with poor absorption to be irresponsible, especially if people take high doses, absorb it, then experience side effects without understanding possible links to mineral depletion. oversimplification, but i've hammered that gong plenty on this thread already.


I am being very responsible by suggesting a Vit D3 dose of 5000 or 10,000 IU per day, this is a safe dose for pwMS. Only if blood D3 does not move to 150-200 nmol/L do I suggest adding a general low dose multimineral. PwMS require a cheap and simple approach as most cannot afford a large number of tests (sometimes unreliable) to check their mineral levels. I understand the issues of mineral depletion and assure TiMS readers my recommendation is professional and well researched. As the title of my thread says: FIRST SMALL STEP FOR PWMS, well worth the few pence a day Vit D3 costs.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Retired Pharmacist. 12 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Comment:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:04 pm

i was two years into high dosing d3 at 4000 IU per day, before the real life-threatening trouble started with my magnesium status. i know of no studies that match that dose over that time frame.

i was just coming out of a related chest xray and randomly dropped in to the pharmacy counter to ask some other question. that man saved my life by telling me i needed magnesium. i told him i took it daily. he said, take it more, and make sure you take some away from the vitamin d3. thus began my fun adventures with mag oxide etc.

carolyn dean makes a good point here
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carolyn-d ... 40931.html
"Personally, I think we should consider that part of the vitamin D deficiency epidemic is an underlying magnesium deficiency. That could mean that we don't really need extraordinarily high doses of vitamin D, but a combination of vitamin D along with magnesium to make the vitamin D work. I often recommend 1,000-2,000iu along with 600 mg of elemental magnesium."

sounds perfect to me (getting as much mag as possible from diet of course). and on that note:

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2 ... 50_eng.pdf
"the available data suggest that the total magnesium intake must be at least 450–500 mg/day, and drinking-water should contain a minimum of 25–50 mg/l (at present, in the United States, many of our potable water sources contain <10 mg/l). At the turn of the past century, we were ingesting, in the United States, about 450–500 mg of magnesium per day; at present, we are ingesting about 175–248 mg/day" ... "in order to prevent or ameliorate vascular- and cardiac-related disorders, our diets and/or drinking-water (and beverages) should be supplemented with magnesium"

reported daily mag intakes:
Canada..........209–279 mg
France...........284–377 mg
Guam.............270±131 mg
Israel.............228–270 mg
South Africa....228–285 mg
Spain...................366 mg

i like carolyn's other point as well: "In 2011, a British Medical Journal meta-analysis sounded the alarm that "Risks outweigh benefits for calcium supplements."[5] The study indicates that calcium supplements do more harm than good. They cause more cardiovascular events (such as heart attacks and stroke) than the number of fractures they prevent." ie when you load the system with supplements that mess with magnesium, people die.

i've definitely helped people with low response to d3 supplementation improve by adding minerals. waaaay back when i was the one going on about high dose d3, i remember NHE getting his d3 levels sorted with a pretty low dose and a multimineral. for myself, i definitely noticed a dramatic change in d3 dose response after correcting zinc deficiency (which would have had an effect on mag status too) ooohh so interconnected :S !!

it's clear that the body requires magnesium to handle vit d3. i don't think it's at all wise to only bother with magnesium levels, in the event that vit d3 levels don't respond appropriately to supplementation. it needs to happen right up front, so that people don't make a widespread magnesium problem even worse by making vit d3 the new calcium.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:45 pm

The majority of the population do not have a problem if they take 5000 or 10,000 IU of Vit D3. I have posted the European data on this thread. When you have studies which show that Vit D3 is a problem for the majority if they do not take magnesium first I will amend my recommendation. Your personal experience Jimmylegs is an outlier in the population, unfortunate but should not be used to make general guidance. This thread is about Vit D3 for pwMS not magnesium in the general population.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Retired Pharmacist. 12 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Comment:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:34 pm

come now, ms patients have even WORSE magnesium status than the general population, so it's an even bigger concern.

Assessment of serum magnesium, copper, and zinc levels in multiple sclerosis (MS) patients
http://ijpbs.mazums.ac.ir/browse.php?a_ ... lc_lang=en
Mean serum level of magnesium was 1.87 ± 0.37, copper 110.7 ± 19.5, and zinc 85.4 ± 13.5 in patients (control group), and 2.22 ± 0.24, 133.7 ± 13.4, and 110 ± 8.3 respectively in case group. This difference is statistically significant (P< 0.001).

please explain how my situation can be a one-off, when a randomly encountered pharmacist was able to hone in on my problem in under a minute - when i didn't even bring it up?

i'm not the only one having these experiences:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carolyn-d ... 40931.html
I became aware of the close association between vitamin D and magnesium after receiving emails from people experiencing magnesium deficiency symptoms after they began taking high doses of Vitamin D.
http://paleohacks.com/questions/113534/ ... fects.html
I've been taking 5,000IU of Vitamin D pretty much daily since I'm not getting much sun this winter. It seems I get kinda light headed, dopey, and I feel "out of it". Is that because I'm magnesium deficient? Yesterday I didn't take any Vitamin D, and I felt fairly normal. Could that be a hint to me? Any ideas or suggestions?
This is what made me wonder: http://www.naturalnews.com/029195_magne ... min_D.html

Magnesium, vitamin D status and mortality: results from US National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) 2001 to 2006 and NHANES III
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/187/abstract
High intake of total, dietary or supplemental magnesium was independently associated with significantly reduced risks of vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency respectively. Intake of magnesium significantly interacted with intake of vitamin D in relation to risk of both vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency. Additionally, the inverse association between total magnesium intake and vitamin D insufficiency primarily appeared among populations at high risk of vitamin D insufficiency. Furthermore, the associations of serum 25(OH)D with mortality, particularly due to cardiovascular disease (CVD) and colorectal cancer, were modified by magnesium intake, and the inverse associations were primarily present among those with magnesium intake above the median.

Interactions between magnesium and vitamin D: possible implications in the immune system.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9140864
Evidence clearly shows that magnesium and vitamin D [1 alpha, 25-dihydroxyvitamin D3; 1,25(OH)2D3] independently affect numerous aspects of the immune system. ... this paper identifies numerous places in common where both magnesium and vitamin D reportedly affect immune function. ... there are compelling reasons to believe that examining interactions between magnesium and vitamin D within the immune system could prove rewarding, especially since the physiological statuses of both nutrients in human populations are less than optimum.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drug ... l/929.html
Taking vitamin D for long periods of time in doses higher than 4000 units per day is POSSIBLY UNSAFE

i think it would be far more responsible to address the known mineral (ie true essential micronutrient) deficiency problems first, then figure out what's left to do for d3.

when you show me a multi-year study of 5000-10,000 IU of vit d3 per day with no mineral depletion and no undesirable side effects, then you can say it's safe.

in the meantime:

Vitamin D status and ill health: a systematic review
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landi ... 13-8587(13)70165-7/abstract
In 34 intervention studies including 2805 individuals with mean 25(OH)D concentration lower than 50 nmol/L at baseline supplementation with 50 μg per day or more did not show better results. ... The discrepancy between observational and intervention studies suggests that low 25(OH)D is a marker of ill health.

super interesting. i still consider serum targets relevant, but not in isolation and not using blanket dose recommendations without understanding the rest of the picture.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Anonymoose » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:49 pm

Have to hop in here with my big mouth. Markw...people with ms are not the general population. I suspect we feel nutrient imbalances before the general population (I feel neurological effects of iron, calcitriol, and copper imbalances at barely high or low levels). And due to the demands of our ever present inflammatory cascade, our nutrient demands are surely higher.

No nutrient lives on an island. Every single biological process is dependent upon multiple vitamins, minerals, and fats. Co-factors are essential. To recommend just high dosing vitamin d or anything without co-factors is questionable in the least.

Forgive my lack of tact but having been on a nutrient related rollercoaster for the past six months (including a severe reaction to vitamin d), I'm a bit sensitive about the topic.

(Thank goodness we can count on Jimmylegs for the rational presentation of studies. :P )
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:39 pm

been a complicated ride hasn't it anon! :) general-discussion-f1/topic23807.html

sciencescienceSCIENCEscienceSCIENCEs.c.i.e.n.c.e (to be read in charlie brown schoolteacher voice)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:23 am

muse wrote:A FB buddy told me that one of my public FB-notes is circulating on TIMS, so just a short reply regarding proper Mg-testing.
---Mg-Serum tests are pretty worthless. Period.---
Best Arne p.s. ...better to open a new thread to discuss the topic because it's complex.
“...Just 1% of the body’s Mg is circulating in our blood stream. The rest is hidden in our body tissue (60% in the bones 39% in soft tissue like heart, brain, liver, kidney, glands, & muscles with highest concentration in the ventricles of the heart) and the body will do EVERYTHING (until it’s to late/heart attack) to keep this level!
There can even exist a 'Mg-paradox' if you are already highly deficient in this mineral but a simple blood test will come up with a ‘to much’ in blood serum. This shows only that your clever body is desperately trying everything to prevent the worse case scenario (heart attack) by sucking up minerals from your bones/teeth/brain etc. to support the vital body functions....”

https://www.facebook.com/notes/arne-kaminsky/magnesium-therapy-the-basics/10151818332796987


Unfortunately Muse some posters are hijacking my Vit D3 thread with their ideas on Mg. I know that many minerals are important but it is virtually impossible to measure accurately the needs of the human body. I suggest taking a low dose water soluble multi-mineral and then letting the body choose what it needs and excrete the rest. This approach is widely used across the globe. Have you come across problems in pwMS when using a multi-mineral????
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Retired Pharmacist. 12 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Comment:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:29 pm

Anonymoose wrote:Have to hop in here with my big mouth. Markw...people with ms are not the general population. I suspect we feel nutrient imbalances before the general population (I feel neurological effects of iron, calcitriol, and copper imbalances at barely high or low levels). And due to the demands of our ever present inflammatory cascade, our nutrient demands are surely higher.
(Thank goodness we can count on Jimmylegs for the rational presentation of studies. :P )

The biggest problem for pwMS is low vitamin D3 not magnesium or any another mineral. The scientific evidence shows this, its in this thread. Unfortunately Jimmylegs has a blind spot with Vit D3, due to her personal over-dosing. She appears to ignore the Vit D3 studies and argues against Vit D3 as a FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS. This saddens me.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Retired Pharmacist. 12 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Comment:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:41 pm

NEWS For January 2014 from The Hubbard Foundation. Go the their website for the link and Joan's (Cheerleader) blog to read her thoughts.
Many thinkers on MS place Vit D3 on their 'must take' list for MS. Also don't forget it costs a few pence a day for 5000IU.
MarkW
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Important New Research
Over the years we have seen an increase in information regarding Vitamin D and MS.
The most recent study showed that those patients with high vitamin D levels in the year after the initial attack showed …”over the next 4 years, markedly lower levels of MS activity and disability progression than those with lower levels.”
Joan Beal, in her blog "Multiple Sclerosis-the Vascular Connection" gives an excellent summary of the 5 year study on Vitamin D and MS. Read the study here.
In a recent catheter venography study it was concluded that "there is a high prevalence of abnormal delayed flow through IJV's in patients with MS."
Besides the sun, you can get vitamin D from supplements and from some foods.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Retired Pharmacist. 12 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Comment:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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