Migraines, MS, CCSVI and Atlas misalignments

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Migraines, MS, CCSVI and Atlas misalignments

Postby TMrox » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:27 am

Migraine Headaches, Multiple Sclerosis and NUCCA
Dr. Davis, Upper Cervical Specialist from Vista Califonia

Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency (CCSVI), is a reported abnormality in blood drainage from the brain and spinal cord, this may contribute to nervous system damage in MS. CCSVI has been getting a lot of press recently because Dr. Paolo Zamboni from the University of Ferrara in Italy published his initial findings in June 2009 from a study of approximately 65 patients. Based on the results of preliminary research which has been published in respected peer journals, Dr. Zamboni and others have recommended larger scale studies to determine if CCSVI may be treated through an endovascular surgical procedure, which involves inserting a tiny balloon or stent into blocked veins in order to improve the flow of blood out of the brain and spinal cord. This procedure produced complete remissions in MS in 90% of the participants of the study!

My question is why are the veins blocked to begin with? What has occurred that has led to the changes in the veins? Instead of forcing the veins open with a stent…why not correct the underlying cause of the malformation?

Then you look at Dr. Erin Elster’s research with trauma and multiple sclerosis where she found that 90% of patients diagnosed with MS have had a trauma to the head or neck prior to the onset of the symptoms. And when x-rayed these patients have a clearly misaligned spine that is putting pressure on the nervous system and the blood vessels. When these misalignments of the upper cervical spine are corrected over 90% of the patients in her study had results. Some patients were able to get out of their wheelchairs!

What happened to them? The same thing that Dr. Zamboni was doing…changing the blood flow from the brain to the body. Only in Dr. Elster’s results she wasn’t artificially forcing the vessels open she was correcting the underlying cause of the vessels malformation!

Now not all MS patients responded to either of the treatment options…and perhaps there are other factors involved…but wouldn’t it make sense if you have MS or Migraine headaches to have an upper neck evaluation by an upper cervical specialist? Especially if you have a history of head or neck trauma?

More on:
http://tinyurl.com/28lsm2w
Diagnosed with Transverse Myelitis in December 2008. Inflammatory demyelination of the spinal cord (c3-c5). No MS, but still CCSVI.
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Postby concerned » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:44 am

Is there any evidence that chiropractic manipulations do anything outside relieving lower back pain?

Can "Applied Kinesiology" detect CCSVI?
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Re: Migraines, MS, CCSVI and Atlas misalignments

Postby Donnchadh » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:59 am

TMrox wrote:Migraine Headaches, Multiple Sclerosis and NUCCA
Dr. Davis, Upper Cervical Specialist from Vista Califonia

Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency (CCSVI), is a reported abnormality in blood drainage from the brain and spinal cord, this may contribute to nervous system damage in MS. CCSVI has been getting a lot of press recently because Dr. Paolo Zamboni from the University of Ferrara in Italy published his initial findings in June 2009 from a study of approximately 65 patients. Based on the results of preliminary research which has been published in respected peer journals, Dr. Zamboni and others have recommended larger scale studies to determine if CCSVI may be treated through an endovascular surgical procedure, which involves inserting a tiny balloon or stent into blocked veins in order to improve the flow of blood out of the brain and spinal cord. This procedure produced complete remissions in MS in 90% of the participants of the study!

My question is why are the veins blocked to begin with? What has occurred that has led to the changes in the veins? Instead of forcing the veins open with a stent…why not correct the underlying cause of the malformation?

Then you look at Dr. Erin Elster’s research with trauma and multiple sclerosis where she found that 90% of patients diagnosed with MS have had a trauma to the head or neck prior to the onset of the symptoms. And when x-rayed these patients have a clearly misaligned spine that is putting pressure on the nervous system and the blood vessels. When these misalignments of the upper cervical spine are corrected over 90% of the patients in her study had results. Some patients were able to get out of their wheelchairs!

What happened to them? The same thing that Dr. Zamboni was doing…changing the blood flow from the brain to the body. Only in Dr. Elster’s results she wasn’t artificially forcing the vessels open she was correcting the underlying cause of the vessels malformation!

Now not all MS patients responded to either of the treatment options…and perhaps there are other factors involved…but wouldn’t it make sense if you have MS or Migraine headaches to have an upper neck evaluation by an upper cervical specialist? Especially if you have a history of head or neck trauma?

More on:
http://tinyurl.com/28lsm2w


I do think that small percentage of patients with "MS" have trauma as their cause (myself included in that category), but overall the congenital nature of venous disorders is probably the majority factor.

I suspect the reason why she is seeing such a high percentage of trauma-caused symptoms is simply because of "self-selection" by patients. I know that that was true in my case, starting 20 years ago long before CCSVI was known. Patients who did not have trauma are not likely to seek out a chiropractor for treatment of their symptoms.

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Got MS?.....Get Liberated!
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Postby HappyPoet » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:25 pm

concerned wrote:Is there any evidence that chiropractic manipulations do anything outside relieving lower back pain?

Can "Applied Kinesiology" detect CCSVI?

Concerned, in answer to your first question, although there is more evidence to be found, I'm evidence! Read on...

Everyone, if you haven't already, check out this thread started by Dr. Flanagan: CCSVI and CCVBP.

My story, important highlights only:

* RRMS/ON/TM.
* MRV shows deformed dural sinuses. US shows 3/5 Zamboni criteria.
* Venoplasty of both IJVs with minimal improvements. Relapsed two months later.
* Renewed search for answers to remaining neurological symptoms.
* Found CCSVI and CCVBP (thank you, blossom!)
* X-rays Oct. 2010 show two old, unknown neck fractures and tilted skull. (YIKES!!)
* Started AO chiro ASAP - Major improvements from GENTLE adjustments.

The morning after *first* adjustment, 100% of numbness receded from R foot; went from walker/power chair to cane. :D

After about four weeks and several adjustments, 100% of numbness receded from L foot. Put away the cane! :D And......

The 20' shark biting my torso (MS Hug) is GONE. Happened so gradually that I didn't notice the shark had left until my chiro asked about it! :D

There is lots of research on the thread plus lots of patient stories, like mine. Dr. Flanagan will answer your questions. He also helps people find the proper type of chiropractor needed. He found my *Atlas Orthogonal (AO, upper cervical) chiropractor who is fantastic. In fact, Dr. Flanagan has a plan for me to follow, and I'm only at the beginning.

My advice, fwiw, is to get spinal and orthogonal X-rays (from a qualified AO chiropractor, if possible) even if you don't remember any trauma.

Best of luck.
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Postby concerned » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:36 pm

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Postby civickiller » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:12 pm

My first MS episode happened the day after I kinked my neck doing head hand stands. My atlas was out of alignment. I never felt a change immediate but the next day walking I felt an improvement. I walk with a cane swinging my right leg to take a step. Now still with my cane I can take a step not swinging my leg. Majority of the day I don't even need to use my cane, still limping but I can walk without my cane.
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Postby ozarkcanoer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:45 pm

concerned... Thanks for the links to the criticism of chiropractic "medicine". Many of my friends highly recommend their chiropractors and I just smile and nod. If there is a psychological advantage to seeing a chiropractor then maybe this really helps people and I am truly happy for those who are "helped". !! However I am a skeptic. I am also a CCSVI skeptic, but nevertheless I had the CCSVI procedure done on August 17 of this year so who am I to criticize ? Let's hope that science will someday show us the way on all fronts.

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Postby Lyon » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:00 pm

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Last edited by Lyon on Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby civickiller » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:52 pm

Alot of people didn't have neck trauma and alot did and we have MS. I wanna have everything in my body, eg. Upper cervical, fixed. Before I get the CCSVI procedure done so I don't restenosis. And if getting my spine fixed make me feel better for under $100 then I'll take it. You can't go see any old chiro, has to be a special chiro
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Postby HappyPoet » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:51 pm

Hi concerned, you're concerned about me, but you needn't be -- I like having my head on straight ;) (forgive me please, I couldn't help myself.)

I paid you the respect of visiting your link. My assessment of the site is that it's run by individuals even more paranoid than myself, and I think you and I should stay away from there. Comments like the following did not impress me, not at all:

The Skeptic's Dictionary wrote:The clinical evidence indicates that a treatment of something like ibuprofen and exercise is just as effective as chiropractic for relieving back pain (Ernst and Singh 2008).

Clinical evidence? What clinical evidence? What are the sources? The reference provided is not to a clinical study, btw -- it's just to their anti-chiro book, but it's a devious way to make the citation look like the citation is to a clinical study, I'll give them that. How much ibuprofen? Even ibuprofen has side effects. What kind of exercise and for how often? A serious discussion would provide these answers rather than just spout off unprovables. Also, what if I can't have or don't want NSAID medication side effects, and what if I can't exercise???

One is likely to seek a chiropractor (or buy magnetic braces or some other bit of quackery) when one's pain is most severe."

The words within the parentheses would not be found in a serious discussion.

I could go on, but why should I bother. This page is full of misleading statements, half-truths, untruths, lies of omission, etc. The site kind of reminded me of Colin Rose's site. Trust me, it's not worth our time, concerned.
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Postby TMrox » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:18 am

I have written this post in another thread but might worth duplicating:
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-7800.html

Docs have known for a long time that trauma and vascular issues can cause demyelization.

Here a video of a 2010 symposium of rare neuro conditions.
The speaker is Dr Pardo (Johns Hopkins)
http://tinyurl.com/29qo895

The video is about my condition (Transverse Myelitis) but talks at length that arteriovascular malformations, blood clots (like a stroke) and trauma can cause demyelinization. How the symptoms appear might help neurologist establish the cause.

Also the video shows MRI scans of people with lesions caused by trauma, arteriovascular malformations, MS and Transverse Myelitis. These lesions might look different depending on the cause. Of course other tests are needed such as spinal taps.

Dr Pardo believes that some people with the current labels of MS or TM might actually suffer from other conditions (like the vascular issues he mentions). Interestingly he predicts that new conditions will be distinguished within the groups we currently know as MS, TM and NMO.
Diagnosed with Transverse Myelitis in December 2008. Inflammatory demyelination of the spinal cord (c3-c5). No MS, but still CCSVI.
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Postby concerned » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:40 am

I liked the quote from the founder of "chiropractic medicine" where he compared himself favourably to Jesus, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and Mary Baker Eddy.
(EDIT: Not a direct quote actually (I read it yesterday))


http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/bio.html


Robert T. Carrol has recently been elected a fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (formerly CSICOP) and although I'm a fellow in bad standing of the Committee for the Surrealistic Investigation of Claims of the Normal, it's still a pretty prestigious title in skeptical circles.
Last edited by concerned on Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby concerned » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:42 am

HappyPoet wrote:
One is likely to seek a chiropractor (or buy magnetic braces or some other bit of quackery) when one's pain is most severe."



The Skeptic's Dictionary is a pop-science book, I see no problem with the inclusion of passages as such.
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Postby bluesky63 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:04 pm

So Jesus, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into a vascular waiting room . . .

This is like the caption contest. :-)

Seriously, there are so many people of so many varieties who have the label "chiropractor" that you could find someone to support either a negative or a positive experience. I have been to chiropractors who just filed their patients through the waiting room and cracked their backs for the copay (rare, thankfully) and I have been to gifted practitioners.

As in every area, someone has to graduate at the bottom of the class, and there are going to be some fringe dwellers. But there are some great chiropractors out there. Chiropractors as one mass entity can't be lumped together, anymore than all doctors can be lumped together.

Thanks to everyone for all the links. :-) And I am very, very excited for everyone who has found benefits! How can anyone not be happy when people are getting relief of their symptoms?
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Postby fee001 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:32 am

A misaligned Atlas can alter blood flow. The Atlas bone is the first bone between head and spine.

Mine was misaligned since first or second treatment blood flow increased plus gums had bled for years, this stopped.

Fiona
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