Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
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jimmylegs
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Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by jimmylegs »

If you have an MS diagnosis, you are likely to have a constellation of nutrient imbalances that have been extensively researched.

If you are considering invasive surgery as a preventive measure, you might be interested in optimizing nutritional status prior to, or in conjunction with, any CCSVI investigations.

The first thing to understand when beginning nutrition investigations, is the unfortunate language of the lab. Specifically, the statistical term 'normal'.

The 'normal' range (perhaps more familiarly an area under a 'bell curve') is often quite a broad range (ie the mean +/- 2 standard deviations, which covers 95% of the population under the curve. the remaining 5% considered non-normal are represented by the 2.5% under the left tail (below normal) and right tail (above normal) respectively).
*if only* 95% of the population were actually healthy. we're not, therefore in many cases the normal range includes both sick and healthy people, much in the way that the curve describes the range of typical results on academic tests. sure we're all normal, but that doesn't mean we're all geniuses.

There is sometimes a much smaller range within the normal range that can be described as 'optimal'. levels can travel out of this section of the range for many reasons. One possibility to consider is suboptimal general status due as applicable to low intake, absorption, utilization, stores, or saturation.

For example, a normal range for zinc might be 10-20 umol/L (depending which lab you go to and which test is run; different labs use different settings eg plasma vs serum, which have different ranges since serum results can be affected by red blood cell zinc content). for serum zinc, ms patients typically average in the low teens. healthy controls often average in the high teens.

One example of the danger of the word 'normal' is this: recently a patient here at TIMS asked for a zinc test and was told the level was fine. When the patient asked for specifics the result info was 10.083 umol/L (normal range was 10-20 there). This patient was not told that the level was suboptimal, or even borderline deficient, just that it was 'fine' - ie the computer did not red flag it because the value was within the min and max setpoints. meanwhile by my hospital lab's standards, at which the normal range for zinc is 11.5-18.5 umol/L (adheres to the regional standard), the same TIMS patient would be considered deficient. but, given a different lab set up, in her case everything was apparently just fine :roll:

Another example: the normal range for uric acid can range from as low as 90 umol/l to as high as 480 umol/L (and at my lab, 140-360).
MS patients have been found to average 194 umol/L (lower in relapse, higher in remission). Healthy controls sat in the 290-300 umol/L range. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 384.x/full
(update: Low serum uric acid levels in patients with multiple sclerosis and neuromyelitis optica: An updated meta-analysis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27645338 )
(update 2: Is it time to revise the normal range of serum uric acid levels?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24867507
in the 2nd update above, authors suggest 360 should be considered the upper limit of the normal range)

Interestingly, some studies have demonstrated a positive correlation between uric acid levels and zinc levels. So if you are low in zinc you may be low in uric acid too. read more: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1787800416
https://link.springer.com/article/10.13 ... :113:3:209

Suspect nutrients for MS patients include but are not limited to:

vitamin b complex (all of them, particularly b12)
vitamin d3
vitamin e
magnesium
selenium
zinc
essential polyunsaturated fatty acids

All of the above are also important for optimal vascular health.
Last edited by jimmylegs on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by munchkin »

Hi

I think it's great that this is at the top, I wish I had found this information earlier in the whole CCSVI process. Along with the information regarding the why's, how's, and who's of CCSVI, this location provides easy access to the nutritional information. If your body isn't healthy you will have a much harder time with any type of invasive procedure.

Thanks for putting this up.
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Post by jimmylegs »

you are welcome, munchkin :)
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Post by cheerleader »

Hope it's OK to include this nutritional/lifestyle program on the CCSVI forum (since this is how it started). This was the program sent to Stanford University, and is based on Dr. John Cooke's book, The Cardiovascular Cure. It addresses the vascular aspects of MS.
hope it helps!
cheer

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Post by munchkin »

The more information the better, thanks Cheerleader.
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Post by jimmylegs »

lots of great nutrition info out there, good stuff! i don't agree with all of it, but together the answer is there! :)
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Re: Step 1: Nutrition

Post by jimmylegs »

example of an important nutritional piece of the puzzle

Effect of magnesium on restenosis after percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty: a clinical and angiographic evaluation in a randomized patient population
https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/arti ... 164/467625

Abstract
Restenosis is a major clinical problem following successful percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty. Since magnesium has vasodilator and antithrombotic effects, this study was designed to evaluate its potential to decrease the rate of restenosis.
In an open-labelled, randomized controlled study, 148 patients underwent successful coronary angioplasty. Ninety-eight patients were treated with ...[IV] magnesium sulphate ... 49 of them continued with oral supplements of magnesium hydroxide 600 mg. ... 50 patients served as controls (group C).
... A trend towards a lower rate of restenosis (>50% reduction in luminal diameter) was noticed in the magnesium groups (28/110, 25%) compared with the control group (20/53, 38%) P=0.10. ...
It is concluded that intravenous administration of magnesium in patients undergoing coronary angioplasty is feasible and safe and that the beneficial trend of magnesium to prevent acute recoil and late (within 6 months) restenosis is encouraging and should promote further investigation in a larger patient population.
i'd be interested to see a study which compared serum magnesium levels in subjects with and without stenosis...
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Re: Step 1: Nutrition

Post by arabia »

jimmylegs wrote:If you have an MS diagnosis, you are likely to have a constellation of nutrient imbalances that have been extensively researched.

If you are considering invasive surgery as a preventive measure, you might be interested in optimizing nutritional status first, or in conjunction with, any CCSVI investigations.

The first thing to understand when beginning nutrition investigations, is the unfortunate language of the lab. Specifically, the term 'normal'.

The 'normal' range (perhaps more familiarly the 'bell curve') is often quite a broad range which in many cases includes both sick and healthy people, much in the way that the curve describes the range of typical results on academic tests.

There is a much smaller range within the normal range that can be described as 'optimal'.

For example, a normal range for zinc might be 10-20 umol/L (depending which lab you go to; different labs use different settings). ms patients average in the low teens. healthy controls average in the high teens.

One example of the danger of the word 'normal' is this: recently a patient here at TIMS asked for a zinc test and was told the level was fine. When the patient asked for the number it came back 10.083 umol/L. This patient was not told that the level was suboptimal, or even borderline deficient, just that it was 'fine' - ie the computer did not red flag it because the value was within the min and max setpoints. (6/30 edit: i was reading a source today which listed the normal range for zinc as 11.5 - 18.5 umol/L so by that definition of normal, the TIMS patient was actually deficient. just a different set up at the lab and you're fine :roll:)

Another example: the normal range for uric acid is 140-360 umol/L. MS patients average 194 umol/L. Healthy controls sit in the 290-300 umol/L range. Interestingly, uric acid levels are positively correlated with zinc levels. So if you are low in zinc you are likely to be low in uric acid too. read more: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1787800416

Suspect nutrients for MS patients include but are not limited to:

vitamin b complex (all of them, particularly b12)
vitamin e
vitamin d3
magnesium
selenium
zinc
essential polyunsaturated fatty acids

All of the above are also important for optimal vascular health.
thanks
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by jimmylegs »

on protecting yourself from damage associated with sudden new blood flow.. some reasons to consider optimizing your nutrient status prior to a CCSVI procedure

Cytokines, Neuropeptides, and Reperfusion Injury during Magnesium Deficiency
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

Protective effects of magnesium against ischaemia-reperfusion injury through inhibition of P-selectin in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17973860

The effects of magnesium pretreatment on reperfusion injury during living donor liver transplantation
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3121087/
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by 1eye »

Hello. I just wanted to pass something along:

I was hunting in our favorite web for info on paleolithic nutrition. I ended up at this site:

http://authoritynutrition.com
I don't have any affiliation, or even know who this is, but after seeing their video and reading a lot on this site, I am going to take a chance and say: I recommend that you poke around on these pages.

I would like to see a website or thread or something semi-permanent where folks can exchange paleolithic-compatible recipes. As I've said, my rule of thumb is: don't put anything in your mouth that you could not have got hold of 10,000 years ago. Because back then, mouths had fully evolved, and there was nothing you could eat or drink, that anyone could manufacture and sell you, called food, that wasn't.

I also recommend very highly the book, Salt, Sugar, Fat by Pulitzer prize winner Michael Moss. A blurb for that is at https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2013nl/jul/ssf.pdf

Also, it seems the entire book, as a PDF file, for who knows how long, is at http://scalar.usc.edu/works/uiuc-food-n ... 13_2.1.pdf. Save it to your hard disk!

I really think it's a great book, and the irony is that the author probably is making oodles of cash from the brand identifications that are on just about every page.

If that doesn't change the way you look at food, you must be from a different planet than the one I grew up on.

Anybody have any ideas, recipes, etc. to share?
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by Stillhaha »

Back when I lived in California I could order a Complete Blood Count of nutrients any month if I chose. My B-12 levels are higher than normal, which surprised every doctor, but did not matter. Here, in Florida now,the doctors seem borderline incompetent.
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by jimmylegs »

i don't recall ever having encountered this info about vit D3's potentially damaging effects on vasculature before, or that this effect can be exacerbated by low mag (makes sense though). thought this abstract deserved a place in the CCSVI forum
Effects of a dietary magnesium deficiency and excess vitamin D3 on swine coronary arteries
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2159962
"The effect of a moderate magnesium (Mg) deficiency on coronary arteries of 61 swine, fed various levels of vitamin D3, was studied by light and electron microscopy. The effect of subnormal Mg intake on vitamin D3-induced intimal lesions of the arteries showed a trend towards increased damage. The degree of cell degeneration and intimal thickening, which was induced by high vitamin D intakes, was as great in swine whose diet was low in Mg and moderately high in vitamin D as it was in those on twice as much vitamin D. Also, the degree of arterial calcification was intensified by inadequate Mg intake at the two higher vitamin D intakes. Present findings indicate that suboptimal dietary Mg, in combination with an excess of vitamin D, has an additive effect in the initiation of ultrastructural changes in the coronary arteries. Extension of the study is indicated to ascertain the extent to which further reduction of Mg intake can potentiate vitamin-D-induced coronary lesions."
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by ThisIsMA »

Hi Jimmylegs,

That is really interesting (and concerning) information about vitamin d and calcification.

I found a journal article that indicates there is a difference between how animals react to Vitamin D supplementation and how people react. The text is really complicated, but here's a link to that article and an excerpt from it:

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/3/5/1542.full
Vitamin D and Osteogenic Differentiation in the Artery Wall
Jeffrey J. Hsu*, Yin Tintut*, Linda L. Demer*


Conclusions
The relationships of vitamin D with atherosclerotic calcification and with aortic medial calcification are strong and most likely involve multiple mechanisms within the complex, bone-vascular-renal endocrine axis. In cell culture and in animal models, vitamin D treatment is clearly associated with increased vascular calcification; however, clinical studies show either no effect or an inverse relationship between vitamin D levels and vascular calcification, probably as a result of the complex, bone-vascular-renal-endocrine axis. Nevertheless, clinical studies also indicate that there is a narrow range of vitamin D levels within which vascular function is optimized, and levels above or below this range seem to confer increased risk for cardiovascular disease.
I bolded some text for emphasis.

Elsewhere in the above journal article they site a study that found vitamin d levels between 15 and 30 ng/ml did not contribute to calcification. This is a little distressing since I've been trying to keep my own vitamin D level much higher than that, a level they say could contribute to calcification. I have two older relatives with artherosclerosis.

I wonder if this information should be added to the vitamin D thread. I'm not sure how to find that thread though.

M.A.
DX 6-09 RRMS, now SPMS
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by jimmylegs »

grr post vanished. basically article makes good points about potentially biphasic relationship btw serum d3 and vasc calc. emphasizes key study differences (eg treatment in animals vs endogenous in humans) which could be informing seemingly inconsistent results.
i'll be interested to discover if there's been a d3 treatment x vasc calc study in humans. one that's long term and high dose. and by long term i don't mean 12 weeks or 6 months! :S
and re the 15-30 safe range, this hoped-for study, if it exists, also examines whether serum mag modifies risk of serum d3 at higher levels, similar to the swine study.
in my personal xp of terrible mag deficit symptoms after chronic high dose d3, the problems were reversible with long term magnesium treatment. so if that gives you any comfort, you can start playing it safe right now, work on understanding your personal magnesium universe, and make sure you don't have a potential gap in your defenses against high d3.

as for where to post, i have trouble pigeonholing articles which examine interactions. but this one went here and also to the natural approach forum's magnesium topic. members are free to grab the url for this or other posts, and copy it over to other topics as they see fit! share away :)
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Re: Step 1: Assess/Correct Your Nutrient Imbalances

Post by jimmylegs »

Nutrition Guide for Clinicians - Venous Insufficiency and Varicosities
https://nutritionguide.pcrm.org/nutriti ... ricosities

and re this link included in the above - lol i can't say i have ever enjoyed an extended hospital stay (although i worked full time in one for a while) but i feel like this NEVER HAPPENS:

Basic Diet Orders: Teaching Patients Good Health Practices
https://nutritionguide.pcrm.org/nutriti ... ractices#0

can anyone gainsay, from experience?
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