getting to know your blood-brain barrier

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby NZer1 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:56 pm

CD lets not tell big Pharma and get them thinking they can make millions finding out what we need to know about the action at cellular level. When they find that diet is the most effective, the only people affected will be producers and market people because of the changes in our diet since around the time auto-immune diseases because the fashion. Which of course is about when Charot and others became aware of the vascular involvement.
Regards Nigel
User avatar
NZer1
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Advertisement

Postby PointsNorth » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:21 pm

First, we've had a discussion about Zinc on another thread w. jimmylegs. I tried using for my Crohn's disease and it worked like magic.

On another note, I had the worst day of fatigue of my MS career yesterday. I realized at the end of the day that I didn't take my hypertension med. Could venous-hypertension have been affected? Today all I ate was left-over beef/lamb from night before (Greek) and some wings and veggies at a BBQ. And I remembered to take my meds. Fatigue was much improved. Maybe I'll steer away from bread again tomorrow to see if I can duplicate today's result. And take my meds, of course.
Albany 2010. Brooklyn 2011
Calcitriol+D3 2013-
Hurry up and wait.
PointsNorth
Family Elder
 
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: LeftCoast Canada

Postby NZer1 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:37 pm


ttucker
Newbie



Joined: Jul 11, 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:22 am Post subject: IVUS measurements
The IVUS measurements under discussion are a potentially direct means of determining any haemodynamic standing pressure waves created by venous obstructions. If such pressure waves can measured by IVUS, then through the application of computational fluid dynamics, the amount of hypertension in the area of periventrical lesions could be computed. If this hypertension is sufficiently acute to cause blood-brain barrier breakdown this would provide an explanation for the transport of iron and leukocytes into the cerebral parenchyma. It would also provide a means to estimate the amount of capillary bed ischemia, hence hypoxia, hence loss of oligodendrocytes and hence deterioration of myelin. Leukocytes meet weakened myelin and - voila - MS. If IVUS pressure waveform measurements (systolic and diastolic would suffice) could to be taken at a number of positions going up the vein (IJV?) with a measure of the distance from the obstruction, this could demonstrate that both neurologists and vascular scientists are right. It is an autoimmune disease, but its root cause lies in the venous obstruction causing acute hypertension in the BBB at the venule end of the bed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bingo
User avatar
NZer1
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Postby Cece » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:48 pm

www.daviddarling.info/images/blood-brain_barrier.jpg
Image
Here's the blood-brain barrier, labelled as endothelial cells, and the water, oxygen and glucose being allowed through to the neurons.
Cece
Family Elder
 
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:00 pm

Postby NZer1 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:22 am

It seems that testing people with Celiac's Disease for vein issues seen in MS would give a quick and strong indication of the influences that co-exist between the gut and brain 'barriers'.

The degree to which the gut is effected will be the variable. Some with MS are likely to have Celiac's Disease statistically so maybe it is about the amount of gut permeability caused by for instance gluten and the amount of vascular/valve problems causing a weakened vascular system to leak easier under re-flux conditions. Then the avalanche effect that happens when toxins and heavy metals cross the breach in the BBB made by the re-flux pressures generating more neurological symptoms and damage?

The symptoms in Celiac Disease and Vein issues in CCSVI combined with deposits of heavy metals and toxins may equal what Neurologists call MS.

Whether that could give any direct assumptions who knows but it would give more understanding of vein permeability issues and MS by testing 20 or so people with Celiac's Disease with Doppler Ultrasound Zamboni technique, and see what their veins are up to!
User avatar
NZer1
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:26 am

BBB or gut, it's all membrane integrity at the end of the day

@PN that is awesome that zinc helped your crohn's issues!

Regulation of Tight Junction Permeability by Intestinal Bacteria and Dietary Components
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/141/5/769.full

"As well as having nutritional value, trace elements such as zinc may also assist with the maintenance of intestinal barrier integrity. Caco-2 cells grown in zinc-deficient media have reduced TEER (transepithelial electrical resistance) and altered expression of ZO-1 and occludin (localized away from the cell boundaries, less homogenous) compared with Caco-2 cells grown in zinc-replete media (92). This is accompanied by disorganization of F-actin filaments."

the benefits of probiotics and lots of other things are mentioned in this article also.

the article cited this source:

Zinc Deficiency Induces Membrane Barrier Damage and Increases Neutrophil Transmigration in Caco-2 Cells
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/9/1664.short

i went looking for zinc influences on gliadin and filtered out the search term 'celiac'. what a funny twist this is:

Effects of zinc nutrition and high temperature on the growth, yield and grain quality of wheat (Triticum aestivum L.)
http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/ ... 2440/37982

"Electron microscopy confirmed this hypothesis, and showed that adequate Zn nutrition could maintain the integrity of a number of cellular membranes during high temperature, including the tonoplast, chloroplast envelope and the thylakoid membranes...

...results from both controlled environment and field experiments demonstrated that the detrimental effects of low Zn availability and high temperature on the yield of Zn inefficient or thermosensitive wheat varieties will be most damaging when these stresses occur in combination. Analysis of protein composition showed that supplementary Zn fertilisation increased the glutenin:gliadin ratio in the grain. This suggests that Zn fertilisation may improve the bread-making quality of wheat under conditions of Zn deficiency."

i never thought it was the WHEAT that was zinc deficient. LOL!
Last edited by jimmylegs on Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:31 am

also interesting: intentionally increased gluten in wheat?

Wheat varieties with very low amounts of T-cell stimulatory epitopes may be tolerated by many CD-patients [9,11], while a diet based on wheat varieties reduced in Tcell stimulatory epitopes may help in the prevention of CD, as it has been observed that the amount and duration to gluten exposure is associated with the initiation of CD [12-14]. Breeding for bread wheat (Triticum aestivum) with less T-cell stimulatory gluten may result, however, in varieties with unwanted loss of technological properties, because glutenins and gliadins together contribute largely to dough quality. A correct mixture of both glutenins and gliadins is essential to obtain optimal viscoelastic dough [15], and the quantity and the size distribution of the gluten proteins are important factors for polymerization
[16,17].
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:14 pm

back to humans:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3001004762

Immune-endocrine status and coeliac disease in children with Down’s syndrome: relationships with zinc and cognitive efficiency

Abstract
Immune defects, thyroid abnormalities, plasma zinc levels, and the presence of gastrointestinal disease were investigated in 43 children with Down’s syndrome (DS). ... Coeliac disease was over-represented in the group of DS children and many of these children also showed increased serum levels of immunoglobulin-G (IgG) specific for gliadin antigen. The increment of serum interleukin-6 was age-related and correlated with anti-gliadin IgG levels in DS. Plasma zinc levels were lower in DS children with coeliac disease and in those with anti-gliadin IgG than in DS without detectable anti-gliadin IgG.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Postby NZer1 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:58 pm

WOW,
There seems to be also the effects of fungal infections and parasites that cross to the blood system, from the gut
"In it's normal yeast state candida is harmless but as a fungus it becomes invasive producing root like structures called rhizoids that can push through the mucous membranes or intestinal walls damaging the villi (finger like projections along the intestinal tract) and allowing undigested food particles, toxins and bacteria to move through the lining and enter the bloodstream resulting in leaky gut syndrome." http://www.leakygut.co.uk/Candidiasis.htm

It all seems to point to the same area of issue, blood transport system and leakage when it shouldn't into the brain. And then the resulting action of the immune system to try and stop the result. Whether the leakage is trauma, endothelial poor health, or other action the results (symptoms) are similar across a wide variety of named diseases.

For some reason the fact that this is happening does not seem to get much attention!
User avatar
NZer1
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Postby Shannon » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:45 pm

This is a great thread! There is so much great information, and I will be going through it again because I know I missed so much. I'm learning a lot!

By the way, for Fiona, and anyone else who feels that the technical stuff is all to much to take (this includes me), here is a video you should watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snO68aJT ... r_embedded

I have to try and prepare for my neuroanatomy class soon, so I found this and have kept it to cheer myself up. Enjoy! :)
Shannon
Family Elder
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:00 pm

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:24 pm

my doc always said candida was an opportunistic infection and back when i was first told this, i did not believe it.

nowadays, i do believe it. you'll have to PM me for any TMI-variety details.

there are some language issues with this abstract but still, it does get the point across:

International Journal of Immunopharmacology
Volume 21, Issue 4, April 1999, Pages 271-281

Contribution of zinc to reduce CD4+ risk factor for ‘severe’ infection relapse in aging: parallelism with HIV

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 6199000090

Abstract
Aging and HIV have parallelism in immunodeficiency status because of the appearance of infections or relapse leading to death in both conditions. HIV-RNA is predictor for HIV progression correlated with CD4+ depletion. CD4+ and plasma zinc levels ... may be predictors for infections relapse in aging because of zinc relevance for normal immune efficiency against infections and for CD4+ growth. Moreover, [plasma zinc level] decreases in aging and infection. A total of 67 elderly subjects affected by infections resistant to antibiotic therapy were recruited. A total of 28 HIV+ subjects with HAART therapy were also used. CD4+ depletion (507 mm3) and [plasma zinc level] deficiency (76 μg/dl), as compared to CD4+ (700–1100 mm3) and [plasma zinc level] (85–100 μg/dl; age 40–75 years) normal ranges, are possible limits (Cox hazard regression) for severe infections relapse, such as chronic obstructive bronchitis and bronchopneumonia by bacteria or Candida complication, in aging. CD4+ and [plasma zinc] values are within the lower limits of normal range in urinary tract infections. ... Supplementing zinc (12 mg Zn++/day) for one month in infected elderly subjects and HAART therapy in HIV+ subjects reduces risk scores in CD4+ and [plasma zinc] deficiencies for infections relapse...
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Postby NZer1 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:42 pm

After reading this all, I keep coming back to the fact that there is no proof that diet is part of the problem in MS.
It is definitely part of the healing and for some with certain examples of episodic MS or RRMS there is help to slow relapse numbers that equal or better than DMD's. Most certainly it is a better health option in all cases.
The involvement of vascular re-flux is the effect that 'could' breach the BBB and cause lesions in specific areas of the brain due to the hydraulic effect of vein stress.
The comments by Dr Tucker on Dr. S's thread and the inflammation caused by hydraulic pressure are the keys to this puzzle of BBB breach IMO.
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-10680-5760.html
The breach within the brain and no other breach or problem elsewhere in a persons system has me suspicious.
If there were problems purely in the chemical make up of the veins there are other diseases that occur, it is when there is a physical breach within the brain, that is ongoing or regular that is when we are seeing the 'MS type grouping of symptoms'.
The reason for finding the lesions on vein walls could be the key point to this. The ongoing physical assault from re-flux is the most likely cause, after weakening through ill health.
The improvement of the resistance of the walls by controlling diet delays the disease and will likely occur as another form of disease such as leg vein problems due to valve and vein wall issues. Check Ginger McQueen's story.
The testing of other diseases as has been proposed is likely to be the way to assess the theory of hydraulics and the spine alignment and other traumas and stress and geographic location and hereditary and genetics.

Below is some extracts from http://www.leakygut.co.uk/Candidiasis.htm
The purpose of putting this on was to show how a physical crossing of the vein wall into the blood stream gives symptoms like 'MS symptoms'. With a few changes there would be an identical list.
The main difference is where the blood products and content are crossing the vein wall, if this was crossing the vein wall [b]again[b] this time [b]into[b] the the brain through the same process, a physical assault on the vein wall, then the area 'infected' would be cross the BBB and into white or grey matter of the brain.
It seems to be the same contents just different location of the body and from the reverse action as Candidiasis, (just with out the Candidiasis fungi doing the crossing). Vein malformations and valve issues doing the re-flux action which weakens physically the vein wall, repeatedly over years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote;
"Candidiasis is a fungal infection produced by a species of Candida Fungi, particularly Candida Albicans. Candida fungi normally reside harmlessly in various parts of the body.
If the healthy bacteria in the digestive tract becomes seriously depleted the candida proliferate and can produce root like structures which damage the villi along the intestinal tract leading to a 'leaky gut'.
In a normal healthy person the immune system and the beneficial bacteria prevent the overgrowth of candida. One of the purposes of Candida Albicans in our digestive tract is to recognise and alleviate harmful bacteria. A healthy person can have millions of Candida Albicans.
In it's normal yeast state candida is harmless but as a fungus it becomes invasive producing root like structures called rhizoids that can push through the mucous membranes or intestinal walls damaging the villi (finger like projections along the intestinal tract) and allowing undigested food particles, toxins and bacteria to move through the lining and enter the bloodstream resulting in leaky gut syndrome. Your antibodies attack the particles and wait for them to appear again ready for another attack when you eat the same foods. Then you end up with food intolerances and allergies as well as sensitivities to the environment. [3]. Candidiasis and Leaky Gut Syndrome often go hand in hand and left untreated can lead to advanced stages of disease.

Symptoms

Chronic fatigue, depression, yeast infections, abdominal bloating, constipation or diarrhoea, brain fog, poor memory, confusion, mood swings, chronic joint or muscle pain or weakness, allergies, hair loss, athlete's foot, recurring ear or sinus infections, nail ridges, nail fungus, flatulence, nasal congestion, indigestion/ heartburn, eczema, dark circles under eyes, bad breath, itchy scalp, constant coated tongue, skin fungus infections, genital itching, worse symptoms in damp, moldy or muggy places, sensitivities to environment, low blood sugar, carbohydrate, sugar or vinegar cravings, impotence, prostatitis, night sweats, persistent cough, hyperactivity, hyperthyroidism."
User avatar
NZer1
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Postby NZer1 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:07 pm

Arlene just commented on another thread I have going on this; https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topi ... post118328

Arlene Pellar Hubbard
Dr Fasano has done the research on Zonulin. Zonulin is the gate keeper of the gut endothelium and the BBB.
www.informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.10 ... 0500235334

www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111 ... 244.x/full
User avatar
NZer1
Family Elder
 
Posts: 1517
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm
Location: Rotorua New Zealand

Re: fungi

Postby NHE » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:04 am

NZer1 wrote: In it's normal yeast state candida is harmless but as a fungus it becomes invasive producing root like structures called rhizoids that can push through the mucous membranes or intestinal walls damaging the villi


I'm not sure that the above sentence makes any sense to me. A yeast is a fungus, a unicellular fungus.

NHE
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:24 am

peace out!
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 8944
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency (CCSVI)

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users