CCSVI A simple reason

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby HappyPoet » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:11 pm

Blossom, great to see you posting again!

:D
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Postby Cece » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:24 pm

HappyPoet wrote:For whatever they're worth, here are my thoughts:

CCSVI is a theory about congenital malformations inside veins.
CCVBP is a theory about misalignment of the Atlas vertebra.

Both theories are syndromes, not diseases.
Both theories give an explanation for a BBB breach and lesion formation.

CCSVI does not cause CCVBP.
Malformed veins cannot cause an Atlas to become physically misaligned.
Expert opinion of Phlebologists

CCVBP does not cause CCSVI.
Misalignment of the Atlas cannot cause a congenital venous malformation.
Expert opinion of Dr. Flanagan

A person can have both CCSVI and CCVBP -- I was diagnosed with both.

Another great post. You've been on a roll....
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Postby scorpion » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:34 pm

I am all for adding the Atlas to this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby civickiller » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:43 pm

i think we are looking into ccsvi too much
i also think we are stretching atlas misalignment

but i do believe the atlas misalignment and ccsvi both need to be corrected

in this order
1. multivitamins for life is needed but need to be started now
2. atlas misalignment corrected
3. ccsvi

i hope with the 3 fixed we will be MS free

i also believe its in our genes which makes us more susceptible to getting neurological diseaseas, it just takes something to trigger it
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ccsvi

Postby blossom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:12 pm

we have to remember that there are people being tested that have ccsvi but no symptoms and vice versa. so there is still much to learn.

so, if ccsvi is to be studied it i feel is only a good judgement call for the good doctors to at least include the knowledge dr.'s like dr. flanagan and the dr.'s that happypoet is in their trial. true dr. zambonni or say dr. sclafani are not chiro.'s nor is dr. flanagan a vascular dr. BUT, working together the chances of a more successful outcome might be better. say for instance in some stents were placed because of pressure on the vein. wouldn't it make sence to remove any obstacles such as that before takeing a rotor rooter through the veins with the possibility of makeing things worse for a patient. "which has happened" .

could be that some after getting the atlas and spine corrected would not need anything else. but if they do at least ucc will do no harm and they can move on. it is harder to move on with a completely blocked off vein if that should happen.

if our demands for this fall on deaf ears in the medical world then shame on them and we move on and try ourselves the best we can. but, lets hope we don't have to.
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ccsvi

Postby blossom » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:49 pm

hi poet, been on the low here but try to keep up with you guys. it is good to see more discussion of the spine--not takeing away anything from ccsvi though. you nailed it pretty good.

hey fee001, you made my day that i put a smile on your face. with this miserable thing they call ms smileing sometimes can be hard but if you can be a part of putting a smile on someones face in a small way then all is not lost. hugs and smiles to you from across the pond.
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Postby civickiller » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:02 pm

Dr. Flanagan tried to talk with the Drs on here but it didnt seem to reach their ears. when we were allowed to chime in, i begged them to take into account what Dr. F was saying.

Dr. F tried with Dr. Dake and Dr. Hubbard with no luck
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Postby fee001 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:38 pm

Civickiller,

In uk I get the idea that Chiropractors foolishly I might add are NOT taken as seriously as they should be by the medical profession.

They are very expertise in many aspects regarding the human body and its abilities, well mine is, they have to be. Acupoints, digestive system etc etc he us a very knowledgable person, he thinks outside the box. He treats me as me not a condition.

Also he mainly works at a complentary thearpy centre, so knows many aspects working with colleagues that deal with neutrition, acupuncture, the list goes on. If it is relevant to his work, I suppose he takes time out to learn about it.

Drs deny the existance of Candida which everyone else seems to know about. Even John my chiro. so which one would I trust with my wellbeing.
A doctor with a whole array of drugs at his disposal, which includes antibiotics which would put me at risk of contracting Candida. Or would I ask a man as knowledgable about the human body and its abilities, who knows the attributes of complimentary medicine. No contest really John would get my vote every time.

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Postby ErikaSlovakia » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:00 am

HappyPoet wrote:For whatever they're worth, here are my thoughts:

CCSVI is a theory about congenital malformations inside veins.
CCVBP is a theory about misalignment of the Atlas vertebra.

Both theories are syndromes, not diseases.
Both theories give an explanation for a BBB breach and lesion formation.

CCSVI does not cause CCVBP.
Malformed veins cannot cause an Atlas to become physically misaligned.
Expert opinion of Phlebologists

CCVBP does not cause CCSVI.
Misalignment of the Atlas cannot cause a congenital venous malformation.
Expert opinion of Dr. Flanagan

A person can have both CCSVI and CCVBP -- I was diagnosed with both.

I also had or still have both.
Erika
Aug. 7, 09 Doppler Ultras. in Poland, left Jugul. valve problem, RRMS since 1996, now SPMS,
- Nov.3,09: one stent in the left jug. vein in Katowice, Poland, LDN, never on DMDs
- Jan. 19, 11: control venography in Katowice - negative but I feel worse
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Postby HappyPoet » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:28 am

Thanks to civickiller's help in another thread, I saw a post by Nigel on Dr. Flanagan's thread where I learned (again) that according to Dr. Flanagan's CCVBP theory, I was not complete in my post above -- under certain conditions, CCVBP can be a cause of CCSVI:

uprightdoc wrote:The upper cervical spine plays an important role in the venous drainage system of the brain, brain blood flow and brain cooling. Back pressure against the vertebral venous outlets in the upper cervical spine can thus be a cause of CCSVI, decreased blood flow and decreased cooling capacity of the brain. An overview of the cranial veins will make the connection clear.

I can't believe I forgot this... I've read this page from Dr. Flanagan's website several times before so I must have known about this part of his theory, but... I guess I forgot (forgetfulness is a problem for me).

http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/2010 ... n-cooling/

So, I need to edit my post above to properly describe Dr. Flanagan's theory of CCVBP -- Chronic Craniocervical Venous Back Pressure.
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Postby fee001 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:32 am

Hi!

What is ccvbp?


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Postby Cece » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:23 am

HappyPoet wrote:
uprightdoc wrote:The upper cervical spine plays an important role in the venous drainage system of the brain, brain blood flow and brain cooling. Back pressure against the vertebral venous outlets in the upper cervical spine can thus be a cause of CCSVI, decreased blood flow and decreased cooling capacity of the brain. An overview of the cranial veins will make the connection clear.

He is only talking about the vertebral veins here? While these are involved in cerebrospinal drainage, they are much smaller than the internal jugular viens and the azygous. Most IRs do not check the vertebral veins. Did Dr. Zamboni include them in his definition of CCSVI? Could vertebral vein compression or blockage alone be enough to be diagnosed with CCSVI using the doppler ultrasound and Zamboni criteria? If the gold standard venogram with IVUS is used to diagnose CCSVI, and checking the vertebral veins are not part of the gold standard, I must regretfully disagree that CCVMP can cause CCSVI, although it still may play a role in additional compromising of already compromised cerebrospinal drainage system.
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Postby fee001 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:00 am

Happypoet,

You confused earlier I didnt know whether I was coming or going thanx for clarifying.

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Postby HappyPoet » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:28 am

Cece, I'm going to bow out of the discussion now -- I don't feel I know enough to continue. Did you read Dr. Flanagan's website page which I gave the link for? Did you research any of your questions and find answers? (Also, the theory is named CCVBP, not CCVMP.)

Fiona, CCVBP is basically Atlas (C1) vertebral chiropractic adjustment which is also called UCC for Upper Cervical Chiropractic. Here's a link that will help (NUCCA): National Upper Cervical Chiropractic Association Also, the thread that Dr. Flanagan (uprightdoc) started here at TIMS is called CCVBP and CCSVI
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Postby HappyPoet » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:55 am

Cece, here's Dr. Flanagan's essay:

"The upper cervical spine plays an important role in the venous drainage system of the brain, brain blood flow and brain cooling. Back pressure against the vertebral venous outlets in the upper cervical spine can thus be a cause of CCSVI, decreased blood flow and decreased cooling capacity of the brain. An overview of the cranial veins will make the connection clear.

The cranial veins include the veins of the face and scalp, the diploic veins, the emmisary veins and the dural sinues. The diploic veins, seen in the picture above, and mentioned in the previous post, sit between the inner and outer plates of the membranous bones of the skull that cover the cranial vault.

The dural sinuses seen in the pictures below are the main drainage routes of the brain inside the cranial vault. They are called dural sinues because they are not true veins. Instead they are tunnels formed by the outer coat of the brain itself, the dura mater. The inside walls of the dural sinuses are lined with the inner walls of veins. The dura mater, which means tough mother or material, makes the dural sinus drainage system much stronger than typical veins. As a result, they are better able to withstand stress and resist deformation from the pressure and movement of the brain, which sits on top of and presses down against them.

The cranial veins of the face and scalp, diploe and dural sinuses are all interconnected by the emissary veins. In contrast to the rest of the body, none of the cranial veins have valves to check or prevent reverse flows. That’s an important fact when it comes to discussing MS lesions, which I won’t go into here.

If you click on the picture to the left and look closely, you will see that the dural sinuses are depicted by stripes inside the skull. You will also see little black semicircles on the top and the bottom of the skull. The semicircles represent emissary veins, which link the face and scalp veins to the diploic veins and to the dural sinues.

The emissary veins play an important role in draining the head and brain. The ones located toward the back and bottom of the skull seen behind the outline of the ear, drain into the vertebral veins of the spine. In addition to drainage, the emissary veins also play a critical role in cooling the brain. They do so by delivering blood, that has been cooled by conduction and sweat evaporation at the surface of the face and scalp, to the diploe and to the dural sinues.

Besides cooling the diploe and dural sinuses, the brain also uses two counter current heat exchanger tunnel systems in the dural sinuses to cool incoming arterial blood before it enters the brain. The two cavernous (dural) sinuses are located inside the cranial vault. If you click on the picture to the right you will see the internal carotid depicted passing through the cavernous sinus before it enters the brain.

The other tunnel is called the suboccipital cavernous sinus, which is also known as the atlantooccipital membrane as depicted in the picture below. The suboccipital cavernous sinus is located just outside the skull between the first cervical vertebra and the occipital bone at base of the skull.

Even though it is outside the skull, studies have shown that the suboccipital cavernous sinus is constructed of nearly identical materials, in the same way and serves the same function as the cavernous sinus. For this reason, some scientists now consider it to be part of the dural sinuses of the brain. The suboccipital cavernous sinus contains and cools the two vertebral arteries before they enter the brain.

Thus, the brain is surrounded by cooled venous blood in the cranium and incoming arterial blood keeping the brain about two to three degrees cooler than the rest of the body. Some physical anthropologists attribute the extra large size of the human brain more to its exceptional cooling capacity than to the increase in arterial blood flow that comes with upright posture. Anthroplogists refer to human encephalization due to enhanced cooling capacity as the “radiator theory.”

Both the cavernous and suboccipital cavernous sinuses also play a role in maintaining blood flow and pressure in the brain. Their inner walls contain pressure sensors called baroreceptors that detect pressure in the tunnels. When pressure goes up they send signals that cause the muscles in the incoming arteries to constrict and decrease blood flow. When pressure drops they signal the blood vessels to open up and increase blood flow. Technically it is called the “neurovascular myogenic autoregulatory reflex mechanism.” As an aside, similar important pressure receptors and blood flow regulators are located in the carotid sinuses near the Adams apple of the throat.

The cranial veins drain into two extracranial venous drainage routes. One route is the jugular veins. The other is the vertebral veins. Interestingly, in contrast to the jugular veins, the vertebral veins have no valves making them similar to the cranial veins. Thus, back pressure against the vertebral veins can affect both the drainage and cooling capacity of the brain. This is interesting in light of the fact that in addition to evidence of CCSVI, MS patients often experience symptoms of heat intolerance.

An increase in pressure in the suboccipital cavernous sinus can also decrease blood flow through the vertebral arteries that pass through it before supplying the inner rear and lower most parts of the brain. It can do so by either direct compression of the vertebral arteries, or by stimulating the pressure sensors in the sinus walls thereby causing the arteries to constrict.

Decreased blood flow through the vertebral arteries can cause a wide variety of symptoms such as fatigue, dizziness, loss of balance and coordination to name a few. The complete list of symptoms is too long to discuss here so I will save it for future posts."

http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/2010 ... n-cooling/
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