Opinion of Daflon 500?

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby David1949 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:35 am

Dr Sclafani what is your opinion of Daflon 500? Apparently it is used to medically treat venous insufficiency, although not specifically CCSVI. http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-17751.html
Is it possible it might provide a means of treating CCSVI medically rather than surgically in some cases?
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Postby Taurus » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:36 am

Certainly Interesting. Needs a specialist's comment before trial use by pwMS.
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Postby cheerleader » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:22 am

Daflon is based on a natural compound---diosmin, which is a flavanoid.
It is for use in lower limbs, and it increases vasoconstriction to help veins overcome gravity and get blood back to the heart. We've had discussions on here before regarding medications used for chronic venous insufficiency in the legs in a CCSVI application. It may not be a good thing, and people have reported good and bad results.

Here are earlier threads on diosmin and CCSVI---
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-67890-d ... html#67890
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-93270-d ... html#93270

This is a comment I made on a horse chestnut supplement thread
I'd like to just clarify a bit on this thread...

Many of the vein treatments discussed on here are used on the legs, for chronic venous insufficiency in the lower limbs. Having spoken with the doctors about this, the mechanism of venous insufficiency is VERY different in the legs as opposed to the neck, due to gravity.

Butchers broom, horse chestnut are vasoconstrictors, and this is important to note. They make veins tighter by affecting the endothelial lining. Vein problems in the legs are due to stretched out, hyperextended veins and faulty valves. They are not strong enough to pump blood back up, against gravity, to the heart. These supplements you're discussing are known to tighten veins, make them stronger via constriction. This is not the problem in CCSVI.

In CCSVI, there is a truncular venous malformation (a web or inverted valve or missing vein) that is creating slowed drainage with gravity. The veins don't need to be constricted any more than they are.

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-148484- ... oom#148484

Hope Dr. Sclafani chimes in....he may have a different view.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby Jugular » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:49 am

Cheer, in this publication focusing on valves and CSVI

http://www.medicographia.com/wp-content ... phia95.pdf

there is an abstract (p 149) on the use of Daflon 500 to treat venous hypertension caused by faulty valves. VH and faulty valves seems to be something that Dr. Arata and others arre especially keen on with CCSVI. This is from that article:

P rimary chronic venous disease is a widespread disorder.
Its manifestations include symptoms in the form of pain
and heaviness, and signs in the form of telangiectasia,
varicose veins, skin changes, and chronic leg ulcers. Recent advances
in the understanding of its pathophysiology have shown
that molecular mechanisms in the inflammatory cascade underlie
these diverse manifestations. Venous hypertension and alteration
of hemodynamic forces, such as blood pressure changes in
the wall and sheer stress, induce activation of leukocytes and
endothelial cells. This may initiate the cascade of inflammation
that results in adverse changes in the venous valve, venous wall,
and skin and leads to the many clinical manifestations of the disease.
The disease symptoms and the telangiectasia, varicose veins,
and eventual venous leg ulcers appear to be a consequence of the
changes induced by venous hypertension and shear stress. Treatment
to inhibit inflammation may offer the greatest opportunity
to prevent progression of the disease and its related complications.
Daflon 500 mg, an oral phlebotropic medication, attenuates
various elements of the inflammatory cascade, particularly the
leukocyte-endothelium interactions that are important in many
aspects of the disease. Such medication deserves more detailed
study to confirm its protective effect on venous structures.


It seems like it might be useful. But I'm no doctor.
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Postby cheerleader » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:15 am

Jugular wrote:
It seems like it might be useful. But I'm no doctor.


me neither, jugs...
I just keep Jeff away from vasoconstrictors, since his veins were so tight and severly stenosed. There are flavanoids (like diosmin) that don't have this affect---like quercetin and bromelain--which are vasodilators and also tamp down inflammation. That's been the approach of the endothelial health program...but Jeff didn't have valvular issues...he had hypoplasia, bad inflammation and compression, and it's worked for him. Dunno about people w/valve remodeling issues-

pineapple (bromelain) deserves a look.
Intravital microscopy demonstrated that although in vivo bromelain treatment transiently decreased leukocyte rolling, its primary long-term effect was abrogation of firm adhesion of leukocytes to blood vessels at the site of inflammation. These changes in adhesion were correlated with rapid re-expression of the bromelain-sensitive CD62L/L-selectin molecules that mediate rolling following in vivo bromelain treatment and minimal re-expression of CD128 over the time period studied. Taken together, these studies demonstrate that bromelain can effectively decrease neutrophil migration to sites of acute inflammation and support the specific removal of the CD128 chemokine receptor as a potential mechanism of action.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482869
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dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re:

Postby drsclafani » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:08 am

cheerleader wrote:Daflon is based on a natural compound---diosmin, which is a flavanoid.
It is for use in lower limbs, and it increases vasoconstriction to help veins overcome gravity and get blood back to the heart. We've had discussions on here before regarding medications used for chronic venous insufficiency in the legs in a CCSVI application. It may not be a good thing, and people have reported good and bad results.

Here are earlier threads on diosmin and CCSVI---
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-67890-d ... html#67890
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-93270-d ... html#93270

This is a comment I made on a horse chestnut supplement thread
I'd like to just clarify a bit on this thread...

Many of the vein treatments discussed on here are used on the legs, for chronic venous insufficiency in the lower limbs. Having spoken with the doctors about this, the mechanism of venous insufficiency is VERY different in the legs as opposed to the neck, due to gravity.

Butchers broom, horse chestnut are vasoconstrictors, and this is important to note. They make veins tighter by affecting the endothelial lining. Vein problems in the legs are due to stretched out, hyperextended veins and faulty valves. They are not strong enough to pump blood back up, against gravity, to the heart. These supplements you're discussing are known to tighten veins, make them stronger via constriction. This is not the problem in CCSVI.

In CCSVI, there is a truncular venous malformation (a web or inverted valve or missing vein) that is creating slowed drainage with gravity. The veins don't need to be constricted any more than they are.

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-148484- ... oom#148484

Hope Dr. Sclafani chimes in....he may have a different view.
cheer


I have some difficulties with discussing supplements. They are not part of my learning or education. This is not to say that many do not have merit. I just dont want to respond in a way to suggest that i am an expert.
Salvatore JA Sclafani MD
Patient contact: ccsviliberation@gmail.com
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby Jugular » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:33 am

Dr. Sclafani, you can understand our interest in a medication proven to be beneficial in the treatment of CSVI as a potential alternative or supplemental treatment to surgery. If it helps with venous hypertension in the legs, why not our brains?
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby Cece » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:53 am

I have a list that I printed off before I ever posted, back in 2009, that I have used and appreciated! It was the specific supplements that Cheer researched, understood, and got her husband on.

David, for the question if it helps our legs, why not our brains, I think about the difference between CVI and CCSVI. In our jugulars, the outflow is obstructed from falling; in our legs, the outflow is not being pushed up against gravity. Weak flopsy valves can't push flow upwards (quite the opposite of CCSVI, where the valves are stiff and thickened, not weak and flopsy.)

So if the medication solution for the legs is to have the veins constrict which forces the flow upwards, this may be the opposite of what's needed in the jugulars, which is for the veins to relax and expand to allow more flow through (remembering that a stenosis cannot relax and expand, so IR treatment would still be necessary).

I've been wondering for awhile what new medication avenues will be explored based on the new understanding of MS and CCSVI and BBB and hemodynamics and focal hypertension. But I think a healthy diet and exercise are often as good or better than medication and are do-able now.
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby cheerleader » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:15 am

thanks, Cece--
Good explanation.
Jugular--It was the Endothelial Health Program that I put together for Jeff. I used Dr. John Cooke's research as a springboard. His book, The Cardiovascular Cure, discussed nitric oxide, the endothelium and vascular issues, which I saw were related to Jeff's MS. This was before we knew about Dr. Zamboni's research. Dr. Cooke and I corresponded, and when the Zamboni research was published, I sent it to him, and he got Jeff up to Stanford for testing of central venous stenosis.

Read the paper, see if it makes sense to you. All of the supplements and activities in there will help your overall well-being, and create a healthier, stronger endothelium.
http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health

I'm not a doctor, but Dr. Cooke is....get his book. It's about the heart and central vascular system, which affects the CNS. We are learning more and more about this connection.
http://www.amazon.com/Cardiovascular-Cu ... 0767908821

The lower venous system is very different than the central venous system, because the affects of gravity and venous tone are different. If you really want to try Daflon, go to a varicose vein doctor, and they'll prescribe it, or take the natural supplement, diosmin.
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby Cece » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:25 am

I wanted to say that our jugulars are like gutters and our leg veins are like upspouts, but I couldn't think of a good example of an upspout.

I will have to get Dr. Cooke's book.

:)
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby cheerleader » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:07 pm

Cece wrote:I wanted to say that our jugulars are like gutters and our leg veins are like upspouts, but I couldn't think of a good example of an upspout.

How about a sump pump? Lots of folks on the east coast were using them last week!
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby Jugular » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:19 pm

Cece wrote:I wanted to say that our jugulars are like gutters and our leg veins are like upspouts, but I couldn't think of a good example of an upspout.

I will have to get Dr. Cooke's book.

:)
The pipes going up and the pipes going down both rely on valves to do their handiwork. In the leg variant of CSVI the valves are stuck open and in the neck variant they are stuck closed. Relieve the inflammation, unstick the valves, open the stenosis and Bob's your uncle.
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby dania » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:55 am

I just spoke to someone from the company, Servier, (1-800-663-0839) that makes Daflon and was told, it is not available here in Canada. She suggested I ask my doctor for a sample.
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby Jugular » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:05 pm

I was able to order some from an online pharmacy to be shipped to my address in Canada. Whether it arrives is another matter and whether I will actually start taking it hasn't been conclusively determined either.
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Re: Opinion of Daflon 500?

Postby Cece » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:48 pm

Jugular wrote:The pipes going up and the pipes going down both rely on valves to do their handiwork. In the leg variant of CSVI the valves are stuck open and in the neck variant they are stuck closed. Relieve the inflammation, unstick the valves, open the stenosis and Bob's your uncle.

There is also the 'Doepp' version of jugular valve insufficiency, in which the jugular valves are weak or open and allow reflux backflow from the heart. This is more similar to the leg version, but still different because of the differences in gravitational effects (in the legs, the blood pools because the valves are failing to push the blood upwards against gravity).

Even after you unstick the valves or open the stenosis, how do you keep it open. I wish I was at the 'bob's my uncle' stage! I fear restenosing and I am cautious about repeat treatments.

Jugular, good luck with any experimenting you may decide to do!
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