sorry original post was deleted by me

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

sorry original post was deleted by me

Postby Sunnee » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:42 pm

I am sorry that I made original post. It was ill timed. I especially apologize to New visitors, to have confused you in any way was unforgivable of me and something I am dead against.



I am sorry
Last edited by Sunnee on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: my restricted blood flow reason

Postby Cece » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:07 pm

I went looking for Dr. Zamboni's definition of CCSVI, as published in his papers, and it seems to be cerebral venous outflow insufficiency as measured by the following criteria, seen on doppler ultrasound:
reflux in the IJVs and/or VVs in sitting and supine posture;
reflux in the DCVs;
high-resolution B-mode evidence of IJV stenoses;
flow not Doppler-detectable in the IJVs and/or VVs;
reverted postural control of the main cerebral venous outflow pathways.

http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/80/4/392.full

You are suggesting that the atlas is so misaligned it is causing direct bone-occlusion stenosis of the IJVs? This would be seen on MRVs and CT scans, if it were true.
Other than direct occlusion, I cannot see how a misaligned atlas can cause reflux in the IJVS, VVS, or deep cerebral veins. Nor can it cause valvular or other stenoses to be visible on doppler in the IJV....

It is important that we keep our terms clear, in my opinion, and use CCSVI to mean chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency as defined by Dr. Paolo Zamboni.
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Re: my restricted blood flow reason

Postby blossom » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:04 pm

sunnee, you noted that the reason your blood was not flowing correctly was due to your atlas needing adjusted. you are telling your story and it is helping you. you are merely telling this in the hope others may save themselve a lot of grief and will also get help.

i have noticed many suggestions here such as diet, supplements etc. which are a good thing.

i also have read casses where there was compression on the veins and angioplasty failed. i was under the impression that ccsvi was "chronic cerebro spinal venous insufficiency". they are still trying to figure "for sure" the cause. "and just maybe the cause will be different in individuals." hey, if some have found they only have 1 jugular and they don't have ms-what's that about?

so, you are trying to be helpful and i second the motion that you keep it up. you know your body and it's working for you and could possibly help many more. it already has.

there are those who can't see the forest for the trees. or maybe they like it that way? dr. zambonni named it and he's great but he still doesn't know what causes it. does anybody for sure?

keep improving and telling your experience. there are those listening and hopefully soon other dr.'s will listen too.
Last edited by blossom on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: my restricted blood flow reason

Postby Sunnee » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:02 pm

Blossom,

I know what you are saying, I was letting my frustration influence my behavior and that was wrong. I've gone against my principles here, so will delete the above post.

I apologize to all.

Oh and Cece, I expected your input. I havent read it so will edit my original post, stop others having to.
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Re: my restricted blood flow reason

Postby David1949 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:29 pm

Cece wrote:I went looking for Dr. Zamboni's definition of CCSVI, as published in his papers, and it seems to be cerebral venous outflow insufficiency as measured by the following criteria, seen on doppler ultrasound:
reflux in the IJVs and/or VVs in sitting and supine posture;
reflux in the DCVs;
high-resolution B-mode evidence of IJV stenoses;
flow not Doppler-detectable in the IJVs and/or VVs;
reverted postural control of the main cerebral venous outflow pathways.

http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/80/4/392.full

You are suggesting that the atlas is so misaligned it is causing direct bone-occlusion stenosis of the IJVs? This would be seen on MRVs and CT scans, if it were true.
Other than direct occlusion, I cannot see how a misaligned atlas can cause reflux in the IJVS, VVS, or deep cerebral veins. Nor can it cause valvular or other stenoses to be visible on doppler in the IJV....

It is important that we keep our terms clear, in my opinion, and use CCSVI to mean chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency as defined by Dr. Paolo Zamboni.

Cece
Sunnee didn't say if she had an MRV or CTscan. Maybe she didn't.
Also I think it would be the vertebral veins that would be likely to be occluded by Atlas misalignment. The vertebral veins and arteries run though holes on each side of the neck vertebrae. It would not be hard to envision a little misalignment there that would pinch the veins or the arteries. The UCC treatment can also relieve pinching of the nerves which Liberation can't fix.

I think Sunnee's suggestion is a good one. See a UCC doc first and see if that helps. If not then go for the Liberation treatment. The UCC treatment is much less expensive and as far as I can tell it is totally benign. Unlike a conventional chiropracter, a UCC chiropracter does not bend your back or neck until it pops. They just apply gentle pressure to the side of your neck. The lady I go to refers to it as very underwhelming.

In my case she pretty much eliminated my leg twitching problem which used to keep me awake at night. The treatment also substantially reduced a pain I get in a place I can't mention. :oops: Unfortunately it did not fix the drop foot problem that I most wanted to resolve. But I think it's worth a try for folks contemplating Liberation.
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Re: sorry original post was deleted by me

Postby Cece » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:54 am

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 199700476X
Surgical Neurology
Volume 51, Issue 5, May 1999, Pages 500-505

Compression of the internal jugular vein by the transverse process of the atlas as the cause of cerebellar hemorrhage after supratentorial craniotomy

Department of Department of Microsurgical Anatomy, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA

Department of Neurological Surgery, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA

Abstract

Background

The cerebellar hemorrhage reported in numerous cases after supratentorial craniotomy has uniformly exhibited the characteristics of hemorrhage associated with venous infarction rather than arterial bleeding. The cause has remained obscure, although previous reports suggested that the cause may be obstruction of flow in the internal jugular vein immediately below the base of the skull.

Methods

The microsurgical anatomy of 36 internal jugular veins in the upper cervical region were defined in adult cadaveric specimens using 3–40× magnification with special attention to the relationship of the vein to the atlas.

Results

In every specimen, the posterior wall of the internal jugular vein rested against the transverse process of the atlas as the vein descended immediately below the jugular foramen. In 14 of 36 specimens, the transverse process indented the posterior wall of the vein, causing the vein to be slightly or moderately angulated as it descended across the anterior surface of the transverse process. Three veins were severely kinked as they descended across the transverse process of the atlas.

Conclusions

Obstruction of flow in the internal jugular vein at the site where the vein descends across the transverse process of the atlas is a likely cause of the venous hypertension that has resulted in the cerebellar hemorrhage reported in numerous cases after supratentorial craniotomy. An examination of the biomechanics of the region confirms that turning the head to the side opposite a supratentorial craniotomy and extending the neck, common practices with unilateral supratentorial craniotomy, further aggravates the angulation and obstruction of the internal jugular vein at the transverse process of C1 on the side ipsilateral to the craniotomy.

This research is in patients who hemorrhaged after brain surgery. If venous hypertension as a result of jugular obstruction would contribute to such an event, in the unlikely event that we need such brain surgery, then it is good if we've had our jugular obstructions fixed. Three patients had severely kinked internal jugular veins at the area of the atlas. In CCSVI this might be considered a physiological obstruction. In a living patient, an IR might look at the upper narrowing with IVUS from the inside of the vein, check to see if the vein expands (which it should, because even with the atlas pressing in on one side, there should be nothing compressing from the other side), then treat any jugular valve obstructions which are so common in pwMS, and then look at the upper narrowing again. Increased flow due to the valve obstruction having been cleared may have been enough to clear the upper narrowing as well. Even if it seemed to be due to an atlas compressing the vein, if there was nothing compressing on the other side, the vein would still be able to expand to accomodate an increase in flow. If not, treatment at the upper narrowing might be considered, or not, depending on the IR's philosphy. A stent inside the vein might be the answer. I don't know that an atlas can physically be moved away from compressing a jugular. These are large structures.

These possibilities are worth talking about, in the context of CCSVI as defined by Dr. Zamboni. Upper cervical care might be complementary treatment, but it is not the same as endovascular treatment. This forum is under the category of 'treatments,' meaning the CCSVI treatment of venoplasty, although we certainly do discuss theory and meds and everything, which is good, as long as the discussion does not muddy the definitions, because there might still be people looking for information on CCSVI who end up here, at the birthplace of CCSVI in social media thanks to cheerleader and dignan and mrhodes and everyone who was around in 2008 and 2009.
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Re: sorry original post was deleted by me

Postby Sunnee » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:06 am

oops! sorry I've got the wrong room. how stupid of me.
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Re: sorry original post was deleted by me

Postby David1949 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:35 pm

Sunnee you have nothing to be sorry about.
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