A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby vesta » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:31 pm

In Multiple Sclerosis blood vessels "deformed" by childhood
stress cannot accommodate the blood flow. The auto-immune response is secondary to the true cause of MS, a blood reflux which injures the brain and spinal cord. The origin of the reflux may be structural (CCSVI stenosis) as proposed by Professor Zamboni or it may be a "temporary" stress reaction to a toxic substance.

Let's re-think first causes. And then move on to real solutions.

Epidemiological studies on MS show that those who grow up close to the equator have less chance to develop MS than those living in latitudes closer to the poles. It is the latitude where one lives before age 15 that counts, not where one lives subsequently. It is therefore thought that the lack of sunlight – hence Vit D – is a factor in susceptibility to MS. Vit D is recommended for M.S. patients.

But perhaps a better explanation of the geographical factor is Winter Cold.

The shoulders and neck typically tense up under stress thus restricting circulation to and from the brain. Cold weather stiffens the muscles. Winters bring the body aches of colds and flus.

It is also said that MS patients tend to be high powered, ambitious people. Tensed up in other words. MS cases cluster in northern Europe and North Amerca. Let’s say growing up in a culturally demanding family environment (or in any case stressful) while subject to Cold weather and frequent colds and flus actually compresses and deforms the circulatory system in the child’s developing body. By the time he/she reaches age 15, the stunted blood vessels can no longer accommodate the blood flow. MS first appears in adolescents, seldom in children. Let’s compare the deformity to ancient Chinese footbinding where the tiny child’s foot cannot support the adult woman.

Food intolerances, especially to wheat and dairy products, can further compound the stress. The Neolithic agricultural revolution dates back not much more than 10,000 years, a blink of the eye in terms of biological evolution. Bowel problems are a sure sign of food “stress”.

And the disadvantage of being female (two-thirds of MS patients are women) is that one tends to internalize anger. Rather than beat someone up, women are as likely to beat themselves up. Of course, boys get bullied too. And perhaps monthly menstrual cramps in a growing girl actually "stunt" the circulatory system. Stress.

Maybe the real story behind MS is the damage to the blood vessels caused by growing up female in a 1) driven, ambitious or otherwise stressful family environment compounded by 2) a climate of Cold winters which contribute to 3) frequent viral illnesses compounded by 4) an intolerance to the wheat and lactose of a Neolithic diet.

For fuller discussion MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby Billmeik » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:54 pm

truncular is more plausible.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby Cece » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:04 pm

I agree with the truncular malformation argument, ever since the consensus document from the phlebologists back in 2009 or early 2010. But I have wondered if cold affects blood flow and angiogenesis differently than hot does. In the south, if veins are ever dilated due to heat, do the main veins or collateral veins grow bigger during childhood development, and it is enough to counter the effects of the outflow obstructions?
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby 1eye » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:15 am

Might also be that the corollary is true: that veins grow small enough in cold-weather countries because there is less need for cooling. The end result in fully formed jugulars, etc., might be a need for collateral veins in hotter times, because of insufficiency of the original equipment.

Aside from variations in size we have seen enough malformations that genesis of the original veins should most likely be blamed. If they were healthy to begin with, neither cold weather nor lack of sunlight is likely to have started things off.

I think we have seen how vicious cycles, causing veins to degenerate, can happen, especially if there is hypoxia. The other possibility is that a germ is inducing the valve and collagen changes and deforming what are otherwise healthy veins, circa birth. The vicious cycle still apply, and an end result of some of what is going on is possibly autoimmunity.

Such infections might be more likely in colder climes, but people evolved mostly in their final destinations, and should have gotten acclimatized to whatever germs were around. Finns don't get sicker because they like to follow saunas with snow-baths. Only in recent times have large numbers of random people moved "abroad", either permanently or not, though there have been occasional mass migrations in the past.

The exception to that is accelerated evolution of viruses and bacteria, because of human interference. This has only happened in the last 80 or so years, and might explain the possibly-coincident rise in "MS"/CCSVI.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby vesta » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:43 am

Truncular it may be, but that doesn't account for the geographical and cultural variations. Consider this:


Scotland apparently has the highest incidence of MS in the world. When I heard that, my first thought was, "I guess that's what happens when you're an "uptight Presbyterian". Google that expression and it comes up, it's not just my invention. Presbyterians were known to be strict, disciplined, hard working,"serious", obsessed with sin (and sexually repressed), frugal, and eventually obsessed with "success". Hard on themselves individually, they were hard on everyone else, especially their children. Succeed or die, better die if you don't succeed. Since my working hypothesis is that in MS childhood stress deforms the circulatory system, this Protestant work ethic culture would seem an ideal incubator of the disease. Other happy recipients of this harsh Calvinist Protestant culture were the Netherlands, parts of Germany near the Netherlands, American Puritans and Scotch Irish, Ulster Protestants of Northern Ireland, South African Boers or Afrikaners. It would be interesting to see if these societies display a higher incidence of MS than their neighbors.
This is not to say that today's Scots are "uptight Presbyterians" any more than today's Americans are "uptight Puritans". But history casts its shadow over societies, belief systems get handed down, ways of thinking and behaving perpetuate themselves. Perhaps one could write a sequel to Religion and the rise of Capitalism, calling it Protestantism and the rise of Multiple Sclerosis or Capitalism and the Rise of Multiple Sclerosis. I wonder if China has seen a rise in Multiple Sclerosis since they have gone Capitalist? If Japan has been relatively spared it's probably thanks to their rice-fish-vegetable based diet.
I read somewhere that in Scotland the male/female ratio of MS incidence has widened to the point there are 4 times as many women as men who develop the disease. Why? Because besides being subject to male dominance in general (let's not pretend that misogyny has vanished) the Scotswoman now has success stress fear to deal with, the injunction to succeed professionally while being disadvantaged by gender in the race. More stress.
Then move beyond PubMed's studies of Scotland and we find that Northern Ireland also has a high incidence of MS. Northern Ireland was settled by the Presbyterian (Calvinist) Scots, they have the same historical cultural background as the Scots. And why should Northern Ireland be more afflicted with MS than the South? Because the North is Protestant and the South is Catholic.
Marc Stecker of Wheelchair Kamikaze reports as well that studies of urbanization in Crete show a rise of MS in women who move to the cities. The most obvious reason for this in my opinion is the added stress of finding work in a more competitive environment. Ah yes, the higher socio-economic strata of society is the most affected. Again Success Stress.
In Chinese medicine theory the Gall Bladder meridian rules blood circulation, beginnings, planning. It begins at the outside eye sockets, runs over the head and down the neck, across the shoulders and down the side of the body. When working on a project such as this, I can feel my shoulders bunch up with tension (and working at the computer with the head bent back, doesn't help.) Anyway, "Success Stress" must implicate the GallBladder/Liver "Wood" element the most which knots up the upper back, shoulders and neck.
Then look at another study - of MS incidence among various populations in Israel. Same latitude and climate. Israeli born Jews and Jewish immigrants from Europe/North America show the highest MS indicence, of middling incidence are Jewish immigrants from Africa and Asia as well as Christian Arabs, the lowest incidence being among Moslem Arabs, Druze and Bedouin. Forget the sunlight argument and the genes, the Success Stress Culture strikes me as the most critical factor.
Israeli born Jews are the most afflicted with MS in Israel.. Let's look at this phenomenon again in light of Chinese Medical Theory. Remember, it is said that fear (and cold) "injure" the Kidneys. Their Yang protector, the Bladder Meridian, begins in the inner eye socket, runs over the head, down the neck and down the band of muscles parallel to the spine. When the Bladder Meridian mobilizes to protect the Kidneys, the back and neck muscles tense up affecting blood circulation to the head and spine. Israelis don't suffer from a cold climate, it must be the Fear factor. It may be that Israeli children really do grow up with a heightened sense of survival fear which affects their health.
Someone should think of doing an epidemiological comparison of MS incidence among the various religious groups. In other words, study the role of belief and or behavior in the rearing of children. Up to now, I believe one has been too preoccupied with purely material factors - genes, UVB radiation, viruses etc. Stress is as much an emotional/ psychological factor as material. The necks, shoulders and backs of stressed individuals seize up with tension, and it is exactly this phenomonen which I believe damages the vascular system in children leading eventually to adult Multiple Sclerosis. (And remember that Dr Zamboni found damaged veins in the backs and necks of CCSVI patients.)
See MS Cure Enigmas.net
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby 1eye » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:10 am

to see if these societies display a higher incidence of MS than their neighbors
If you want to write a book about your epidemiology theories, blaming misogyny for a disease in which at least 1/4 of the sufferers are men, or religious beliefs (Irish Catholics get more MS?) or what I call the Protestant Pain Ethic (no pain, no gain), or sexual repression, or apartheid, or Yin or Yang, please go right ahead. You'll be busy. :smile: :smile:

BTW although I had a modicum of success during my working life, none of my family or friends would accuse me of inflicting Success Stress on myself. :smile: Don't stress too much over your theories.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby vesta » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:30 pm

Actually Northern Irish Protestants get more MS. Just statistics.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby 1eye » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:29 pm

The people of Northern Ireland, as I understood it, are both Catholic and Protestant, though they have over the centuries been offended by UK Protestant invasion and discrimination against the Catholic minority. Are you now including ethno-politics as causative of "MS"?
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby vesta » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:03 am

You aren't reading what I wrote.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby 1eye » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:33 am

vesta wrote:You aren't reading what I wrote.

Yes, I am. I just can't believe that there is anything there but coincidence and error. I suppose the Protestant God is more vengeful? Yes, I know, stress. But wouldn't the minority be under more stress? So Northern Irish Catholics should get more MS? I agree, it is just statistics, with which you can prove anything, I guess, including ethno-geo-political epidemiology...
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby Cece » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:52 am

I'm always looking for what to do about it, and it's too late to change our own ethnicity. But yoga might be good for reducing stress and getting tension out of the neck.
Some benefits seen : http://www.neurology.org/content/62/11/2058.short
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby vesta » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:31 am

It's not ethnicity at all. It's cultural values and or imperatives. When Max Weber wrote The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism he "emphasized the importance of cultural influences embedded in religion as a means of understanding the genesis of capitalism" (quote from Wikipedia) Tawney was concerned about similar things when he wrote Religion and the Rise of Capitalism. I'm writing as much about myself as anyone else. My mother's grandmother emigrated to Canada from Northern Ireland and was also part Dutch. Very strict, demanding Protestant cultures with the imperative to succeed at all costs. That's why I call it success stress. There are many other potential causes of childhood stress, but I believe this stress actually tenses up the back, shoulders and neck and literally in some way damages the draining veins (Zamboni has observed damaged veins in just these areas.) It's actually Acupuncture treatment theory which opened the door to this thinking. The bladder meridian runs down the back and it's element water rules cold, north, fear, ambition, willpower, wet and more - sounds like Northern Protestant Europe. But there IS something one can do about it: Yoga is a good idea, massage forcing blood down towards the heart, acupuncture and then all the thinking about CCSVI. I'm for self help measures before intervention. Look at the observation of changes in Crete, that move to the city causes a rise in MS especially among women and especially in the higher socio-economic strata Look at the variations in Israel and consider that culture might make a difference. I've written more in MS Cure Enigmas.net so don't want to repeat myself too much here because it will be badly written. This CAN be treated, one needs to know what we're dealing with. More later. But don't be offended.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby CureIous » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:02 pm

If only we could find that MS smoking gun.

I've seen studies that show abused kids (ergo "stress"), are at higher risk of MS, then we get other studies that show:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 190341.htm
"After considering factors such as age, ethnicity, latitude of birth, body mass at age 18 and smoking, the study found that severe stress at home did not increase the risk of developing MS. There was also no significant increased risk in developing MS among those who reported severe physical or sexual abuse during childhood or adolescence.
"This rules out stress as a major risk factor for MS. Future research can now focus on repeated and more fine-tuned measures of stress," said Riise, who conducted the research as a visiting scholar at the Harvard School of Public Health.
The study was supported by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke."

And I'm sure we can find conflicting studies across the board for just about anything. CCSVI included.

This reminds me of the coffee is good/bad/good/bad studies, now they say "good" for the antioxidant properties, yet early studies found it was bad for the heart, but we're talking 1950's stuff.

I just dont think that any one study can possibly take into account the myriad environmental factors, and the myriad genetic factors, across decades of time, and now we're tossing endless other factors like lifestyle choices into the mix, and I have little doubt that all of the above play some role in a majority of cases, but to what degree and at what particular time will probably never be resolved, as the possibilities are endless.

That is why I try to keep an open mind and not dismiss A because I'm convinced B is where we should be looking. At first, we thought this was mostly about; find stenosis, correct stenosis, and see where that takes us. Well at least for me, that did seem to "do the trick", but that obviously now would be a pretty narrow, myopic view of the state of things.

Maybe neck massage is right for you, and wrong for me. Maybe diet is right for all of us, exercise and even talking on the phone, for me, works wonders where it did not before. I always feel better, not worse afterwards. Vigorous respiration gets that thoracic pump going, but if the blood is having a hard time getting through in the first place due to whatever reason, well perhaps thats not the best route for an untreated individual.

And thats just one tiny piece of the puzzle and we are getting more of it every day.

Yet doing what the neuros did to us, dismissing even newer and more controversial modalities because they dont fit the current thinking of the week, is getting a bit too complacent and comfortable.

We need a constant influx of fresh minds and new perspectives even if they dont fit to a tee, thats how we got here in the first place.

Otherwise we are left with a stagnant cult of personalities and endless talk, while people continue to suffer and die for lack of knowledge.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby Rogan » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:29 pm

If jugular venous blockage is congenital, you may have been born with a possibility of developing MS.
Your likelihood of developing MS could be screened through genetics.

I have never really bought into the Northern Latitude claim as a cause of MS. I have always believed MS has a stronger genetic component to it. More Caucasian's live in the North, which could just as easy explain the higher incidence of MS in the North as low Vitamin D. Irish and Scottish have skinny necks, that's genetic isn't it? Maybe these desirable physical traits also leave you with a "compressed neurovascular system".

Vestas, your cultural knowledge is fascinating, I am not familiar with your Chinese medicine. Doesn't seem like those tricks are helping folks on this board.

Stress releases the killer hormone Cortisol and raises blood pressure but I don't think it is proven that it twists your jugulars. My Dad who passed from MS was pretty stressed out. I always believed he ate very well and exercised. Didn't smoke either. I believe he had an aunt who suffered from MS but never died from it. Back then I believe they just called it exhaustion, or nervous breakdown.

With all of that said if MS is a circulation disease, then anything that helps circulation, proper diet, exercise, low stress job, swimming, yoga, etc should help.
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Re: A Plausible CCSVI Origin Theory

Postby Cece » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:19 am

Stress releases the killer hormone Cortisol and raises blood pressure but I don't think it is proven that it twists your jugulars.

Pregnancy is also associated with an increase in the hormone cortisol and pregnancy is associated with a decrease in MS relapses.
We need a constant influx of fresh minds and new perspectives even if they dont fit to a tee, thats how we got here in the first place.

I agree with this.
With the winter vs summer, I wonder if there is any research on blood vessel size in people who grew up in a hot climate vs a cold climate. My thought would be that the vasodilation and extra demands of the year-round heat could cause jugulars and collaterals to grow to be over-sized in comparison to those found in people who grew up in cold climates.
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