new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby cheerleader » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:09 pm

PwMS have decreased net flow of CSF compared to normals.

Cine cerebrospinal fluid imaging in multiple sclerosis.
Magnano C, Schirda C, Weinstock-Guttman B, Wack DS, Lindzen E, Hojnacki D, Bergsland N, Kennedy C, Belov P, Dwyer MG, Poloni GU, Beggs CB, Zivadinov R.
Source
Buffalo Neuroimaging Analysis Center, State University of New York, Buffalo, New York, USA.
Abstract
PURPOSE:
To investigate cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) dynamics in the aqueduct of Sylvius in multiple sclerosis (MS) patients and healthy controls (HC) using cine phase contrast imaging.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
In all, 67 MS patients (48 relapsing-remitting [RR] and 19 secondary-progressive [SP]), nine patients with clinically isolated syndrome (CIS), and 35 age- and sex-matched HC were examined. CSF flow and velocity measures were quantified using a semiautomated method and compared with clinical and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) disease outcomes.
RESULTS:
Significantly decreased CSF net flow was detected in MS patients compared to HC (-3.7 vs. -7.1 μL/beat, P = 0.005). There was a trend for increased net positive flow between SP, RR, and CIS patients. Altered CSF flow and velocity measures were associated with more severe T1 and T2 lesion volumes, lateral and fourth ventricular volumes, and third ventricular width in MS and CIS patients (P < 0.01 for all). In CIS patients, conversion to clinically definite MS in the following year was related to decreased CSF net flow (P = 0.007). There was a trend between increased annual relapse rate and altered CSF flow/velocity measures in RRMS patients (P < 0.05).
CONCLUSION:
CSF flow dynamics are altered in MS patients. More severe clinical and MRI outcomes in RRMS and CIS patients relate to altered CSF flow and velocity measures. J. Magn. Reson. Imaging 2012;. © 2012 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22733409
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
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http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby cheerleader » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:16 pm

Here's how BNAC did this study:

The BNAC uses phase contrast imaging to quantify cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) drainage through the Aqueduct of Sylvius. CSF is primarily formed in the choroid plexus in the lateral, third and fourth ventricles, and it flows in a to-and-from movement with a caudal (also referred to as “antegrade” or “negative”) net flow through the cerebral aqueduct and foramina of Luschka and Magendie into the spinal subarachnoidal space.

In the aqueduct of Sylvius, using cine MR techniques, it has been shown that the CSF flow is due to systolic expansion of the cerebral hemispheres, which cause antegrade flow (toward the forth ventricle) during systole and retrograde flow (toward third ventricle, also referred to as “cephalic” or “positive”) during diastole. Using semi-automated quantitative analysis of these images, it has been shown that the net flow of CSF through the Aqueduct of Sylvius is significantly reduced in multiple sclerosis patients when compared with normal controls.
http://www.bnac.net/?page_id=605
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby cheerleader » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:28 pm

Dr. Zamboni was the first researcher to note the reduced levels of CSF in pwMS. Two years ago, he published this paper with BNAC. He found a correlation in the severity of extracranial stenosis and CSF levels.
http://members.sirweb.org/members/misc/Zamboni_CSF.pdf
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
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http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby dlynn » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:11 pm

Cheerleader,
Does this mean a "spinal tap" will no longer be necessary to help diagnose MS?
Thank you!
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby cheerleader » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:50 pm

dlynn wrote:Cheerleader,
Does this mean a "spinal tap" will no longer be necessary to help diagnose MS?
Thank you!


It's not related to how doctors use the lumbar puncture, or spinal tap, dlynn.
Right now, MS is partially "diagnosed" by looking at cerebrospinal fluid for oligoclonal bands for IgG--which are markers in the fluid showing an immune response. However, we see these bands in other neurological diseases, not just MS. So, it's really not a very specific way of diagnosing MS.

The study I linked today is about the level of cerebrospinal fluid inside the brain of pwMS. Lower levels of CSF is already associated with neurodegenerative diseases, like Alzheimers and dementia. CSF cleanses the brain of toxins, it protects the brain and adequate levels of CSF are vitally important to brain health. If CSF clearance is lowered, it can harm the brain. And it looks like pwMS have lower levels.
hope that explains it--
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby Cece » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:19 pm

With this established, the next thing would be to see if CCSVI treatment improves the flow of cerebrospinal fluid.
Is there anything else we can do to improve CSF flow? Does exercise affect this?
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby blossom » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:03 pm

dr. rosa's study is useing the upright mri to show before and after adjustment "pictures as they say are worth a thousand words" proving that the spine plays a big role in csf flow. bnac the way i'm getting the study they did was to see if ms patients have a slower flow and they found they do. "correct me if i'm wrong".---anyone following dr. flanagan knows he has done extensive research on these matters and has emphasized the effect spinal issues effect csf flow and blood flow. now with the fonar upright mri and AO adjustments they prove just this. they prove not only that csf flow is slow before an adjustment "as bnac is saying" but it's even a better study because it shows after adjusting the csf flow is better after the adjustment.

i could only conclude that it would be helping the blood flow too. that's a question for dr. flanagan and dr. rosa. which i will ask.
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby cheerleader » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:09 pm

Cece wrote:With this established, the next thing would be to see if CCSVI treatment improves the flow of cerebrospinal fluid.
Is there anything else we can do to improve CSF flow? Does exercise affect this?


Cece--I'm not up on all of the CSF research, but Dr. Flanagan recommends exercise to increase cardiovascular waves and move CSF thru the brain. Stasis of CSF is not good. But his major recommendation is making sure the cervical spine is correctly alligned--and I suppose exercising which would exacerbate neck injuries (like head stands in yoga) would be contraindicated.
http://uprightdoctor.wordpress.com/2011 ... -csf-flow/
http://www.naturalnews.com/034308_exerc ... _flow.html
Blossom--a huge part of the research is comparing normals to pwMS. That's what BNAC did, and why it's an important study.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby blossom » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:15 am

cheer, i did not say it was not important. i was saying that what bnac did was good but that rosa's study is better being that slow flow is proven and AO adjustments are proven to help. all the research is important.

but i'm sure you are aware that there has always been a stigma and head butting when it comes to what is referred to "qualified dr.'s" and the way chiropractors have been treated. even down to not being able to write a script. for an x-ray or mri if they don't happen to have their own. and most ins. will pay very little toward it. what is mainstream afraid of?

and i did get it that the study was for comparison of normals and us msers.
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby Cece » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:30 am

from a different article on CSF flow in normals
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/1289732
Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) flow in the cerebral aqueduct and spinal canal was analysed using real-time magnetic resonance imaging measurement techniques. Respiration-induced rhythmic modulation of the cardiac-related oscillating CSF pulsation in the cerebral aqueduct and spinal canal was found. Deep inspiration was immediately followed by a marked increase in downward CSF flow in the cervical spinal canal, whereas a delay of about two heart beats was seen before downward flow from the third to the fourth ventricle increased. This pattern was also detected during yawning and was followed by a marked increase of blood flow in the internal jugular vein.

That last part, where the increase in downward CSF flow is followed by a marked increase in blood flow in the internal jugulars, would be blocked from happening in pwCCSVI.
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby MrSuccess » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:55 am

in plain speak .... BNAC measured cerebrospinal fluid flow .... and pwMS have about - 50% - of the flow rate of healthy controls.

Or if you will ..... healthy people have TWICE the flow rate of cerebrospinal fluid .....

No real surprises here . They now can measure these type of problems.

Now tell me ...... is this caused by a "pinch point" in system? :idea:

If so ..... can it be rectified ?


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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby dania » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:14 am

MrSuccess wrote:in plain speak .... BNAC measured cerebrospinal fluid flow .... and pwMS have about - 50% - of the flow rate of healthy controls.

Or if you will ..... healthy people have TWICE the flow rate of cerebrospinal fluid .....

No real surprises here . They now can measure these type of problems.

Now tell me ...... is this caused by a "pinch point" in system? :idea:

If so ..... can it be rectified ?


MrSuccess

It can be treated. I am in a study with Dr Scott Rosa. He has noticed that my Atlas is out of alignment. But he is the ONLY person doing this treatment using the Fonar Image Guidance method to calculate the exact spot on the neck to give the treatment. He has a patent on this. And after he completes his study he will be picking and training others to do this.
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby dlynn » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:22 am

cheerleader,
yes that does explain it. I have been following your "notes" on Facebook from the beginning and you make it easy to understand. You're such a blessing!
thank you
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Re: new from BNAC--cerebrospinal fluid imaging in MS

Postby cheerleader » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:33 am

Glad that helped, dlynn.
As dania mentions, atlas alignment can be one reason for CSF stasis. Jugular stenosis and malformations can be another. Lack of movement and exercise is another reason for CSF stasis, so are problems with the cardiac cycle. Traumatic brain injury is another cause. Lots of issues can create this problem. The good news is that doctors are finally working together to look at all of these factors---mechanical and environmental.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842089/
CCSVI Alliance is bringing many of these docs together-across continents and specialties-- to discuss their studies. And the answers for help for pwMS are becoming elucidated. For the time being, I would suggest thinking about a multi-model approach. Diet, lifestyle, exercise, physical therapy, correction of mechanical issues with venoplasty/atlas adjustment. But we simply do not know how long improvements in CSF clearance last after mechanical treatments. Restenosis and re-blockage of CSF flow is still an unknown. And there is not one doctor or person with all the answers...we need a truly colloborative approach.
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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