Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulation

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Does this paper change your mind about Inclined Bed Therapy?

I am still confused about (IBT) helping circulation
0
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What is Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT)?
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I fully understand the connection between gravity, circulation and posture.
1
11%
We need to conduct a controlled study into (IBT)
1
11%
I don't believe the paper to be correct about circulation.
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I use (IBT) and it is helping me
3
33%
I use (IBT) and it's making me worse
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I use (IBT) and it is not working
2
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I tried (IBT) for a few weeks and gave up
2
22%
None of the above
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Total votes : 9

Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulation

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Sun May 12, 2013 2:34 am

Too many years have passed since finding that people with ms benefit from sleeping on an inclined bed. Many of you here have read the posts from people using IBT for ms. The results in the MSRC Report titled Raised Bed Survey should have sufficed to have the results tested in a trial for pwms. http://www.inclinedbedtherapy.com/index ... &Itemid=75

All those years ago I asked a leading neurologist how exactly cerebrospinal fluid circulates and waited for a reply knowing full well that there was no explanation of the driving force. I added that I didn't need to know where it flows from and where it flows to. I just wanted to know what the driving force was? Not a lot to ask is it? Yet neither he nor any other neurologist understands how CSF circulates! Check the physiology books if you don't believe this.

When I asked the question, I knew that my discovery in the circulation in trees and plants applied to the circulation in humans and all animal, even microscopic creatures.

The answer that came back was that it flows from x to x. No description of the driving force was forthcoming. Yet we do understand that posture and respiration is responsible in some way for this circulation that drives and maintains the nervous system.

And then I found this recent paper which identifies gravity as the main driving force for CSF circulation. I have written to the author stating that Brownian Motion is not required to explain a return flow and that the gravity driven down-flow suffices to explain the return flow, sending him my experiment with soft walled tubing, which fits exactly with the image of the CSF flow in the paper! Besides Brownian Motion is multi-directional and therefore cannot focus the flow in any direction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VdMp46ZIL8

Abstract

Background: The authors present the thermodynamic approach to the cerebrospinal fluid circulation.

Methods: On the basis of skin temperature measurements in 16 healthy volunteers a 1.6 ± 0.2 ºC (mean ± SD) difference between the frontal and the lumbar regions has been showed.

Results: Such a temperature difference between both ends of the subarachnoid space in the intracranial and the intracanal compartments can cause natural circulation of cerebrospinal fluid to reach a thermal equilibrium. The cerebrospinal fluid flow is a molecular motion as a consequence of the gravity force and the Brownian movements.

Conclusions: The Brownian motions are the driving forces for the cerebrospinal fluid bulk flow directed upwardly. The gravity force is the driving force for the cerebrospinal fluid bulk flow directed downwardly. The cerebrospinal fluid circulation in the spinal canal is like a corkscrew motion.

Image
Full paper: http://neurores.org/index.php/neurores/ ... view/77/81

This video shows the circulation that led me to Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNJHChtHklg

What does this paper change? It changes the erroneous literature that gravity cannot affect circulation because it acts equally on the descending and ascending limbs of our circulation. This includes blood flow, CSF circulation and Lymph Circulation, along with tissue, bone and muscle circulation. It includes all circulation! No longer can IBT be ignored because it does not fit with published physiology literature.

"Am J Physiol. 1992 May;262(5 Pt 2):R725-32.
Gravity and the circulation: "open" vs. "closed" systems.
Hicks JW, Badeer HS.
Source

Department of Biomedical Sciences, School of Medicine, Creighton University, Omaha, Nebraska 68178-0224. In contrast, in "closed" systems, like the circulation, gravity does not hinder uphill flow nor does it cause downhill flow, because gravity acts equally on the ascending and descending limbs of the circuit. Furthermore, in closed systems, the liquid cannot "fall" by gravity from higher levels of gravitational potential to lower levels of potential. Flow, up or down, must be induced by some source of energy against the resistance of the circuit. In the case of the circulation, the pumping action of the heart supplies the needed energy gradients. Flow in collapsible tubes, like veins, obeys the same basic laws of liquid dynamics except that transmural pressures near zero or below zero reduce markedly the cross-sectional area of the tube, which increases the viscous resistance to flow."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1590467



To say that I am ecstatic about discovering this paper is an understatement.

I look forward to your comments

Andrew
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby NHE » Sun May 12, 2013 10:11 pm

AndrewKFletcher wrote:When I asked the question, I knew that my discovery in the circulation in trees and plants applied to the circulation in humans and all animal, even microscopic creatures


If I remember my botany course correctly, evaporation of water from the leaves combined with consumption of water during photosynthesis creates the driving force that pulls water up through the xylem from the roots to the leaves.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby blossom » Sun May 12, 2013 10:17 pm

hello andrew, i was only able to try ibt for a short time because my disabilities made it too hard and unsafe to transfer myself from wheelchair into bed and i have noone to help with that. i tried to find some kind of jack that i could put under the top of my hosp. bed that would work smiliar to the way the hosp. bed raises up and down with a hand held remote. i did find a bed that will tilt that way but i need the hosp. bed for it's other uses.--only telling this to see if you or anyone reading would have any idea where to purchase anything that would do this.

now to the ibt. i think your idea makes sence and well worth a try at least. the short time i tried i was amazed how much faster my icey feet warmed up and it helped my snoreing. i have read a lot of positive and also where no improvement. i can't even pretend to understand physics on a level you and others here do. with this new info. you found-here's what i'm wondering-with the varinces there seem to be with ibt, atlas adj, dental and ccsvi results. seems none gets too many if any back to normal 100 per cent. but, with dr. flanagan's explanation of the spinal effects on flow etc., dr. amir's work, i'm wondering if this all is in play when say a person's spine such as mine "spurs etc. very bad" on an incline it would tend to stretch the spine somewhat and allow your theory to kick in somewhat better but because some like me still have a screwed up spine that would hinder getting good results. the few i've talked with that tried ibt and got nothing have bad spinal issues. i wonder if those getting better results have less spinal issues. and, even dental issues. i remember sleeping ibt it felt like was moving everything in a way even the jaws. not that i'm trying to discredit you on the contrary i'm seeing how it fits together in a way that should prove more and more that these so named auto immune diseases should be put under vascular, csf and nerve impingement or comprimized or compression illnesses. thank you for your continued participation and hard work you do to get this mess figured out.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon May 13, 2013 12:24 am

Hello Blossom, it's good to hear from you again. If you have a length of sturdy say 3/4 plywood cut to same size as your mattress, have someone sand down all the edges to remove any splinters and place it under the mattress with some of those anti-slip mats they place under rugs, between the mattress and the board. When you press the button to raise the upper half it will tilt the whole mattress. You will need to put some tape on the frame to mark the angle you choose to use. This will enable you to transfer the same way you are doing.

You are correct about the traction that IBT introduces to the spine. I have seen some amazing results with long standing scoliosis, corrected painlessly.

My first attempt at writing a theory for ms, began with the title (MS is not a disease! It is a problem with circulation) Well you can imagine the flame wars that this started in the days of groups on the net, long before social media took off. Today if I were to re-write that paper, I would still use the same title.

How could it be the body deciding to attack it's own nervous system and more to the point how can the myelin suddenly decide that it has finished attacking itself and begins to repair when the bed is tilted? This is exactly what has happened with IBT for people with ms. The only logical explanations for the nervous system to begin to work after shutting down for many years lies in the compression / pinching scenario and the liquid crystal properties of myelin, which behave exactly the same as an LCD Computer monitor / TV. Send the power along the liquid crystal and maintain it's circulation and we can get that old broken screen to fire up again.

In that same paper I wrote that the CSF flow is gravity dependent and if we can maintain the correct direction of gravity through the nervous system by tilting a bed we can achieve this and the nervous system can begin to repair itself, just the same as a lizard can grow a new tail or leg.

My research into spinal cord injuries found a documentary from a Mr Ronald Meyer, who was showing that if the optic nerve was severed in a fish or frog, over 4 months it would grow back and become restored affording them sight again. if the same damage was inflicted on a mouse, rat or rabbit, no optic nerve regeneration occurs.

IBT had restored the sight in two pwms at around the 4 month period and both cases were included in the Raised Bed Survey, conducted independently by the then Multiple Sclerosis Resource Centre. Both of their independent ophthalmologists asked the same question. How can placing block under a bed restore someone's sight?

I found Amir's work on atlas realignment interesting and can understand how a compression in this area might contribute to ms symptoms, and how the bruising and swelling that follows injury can complicate this problem further. The same scenario applies to an injured spinal cord, which is complicated further by the bruising that follows the initial injury and therefore decompression therapy is used.

The fact that varicose veins deflate and oedema to subside when using IBT which, I agree sounds counter-intuitive to the medical profession who advise raising the legs and to people who have heard this from their doctors, but the reality of the matter is that the opposite IBT method has been proven and many unnecessary surgeries can be avoided by sleeping on an inclined bed.

You are welcome

Andrew
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon May 13, 2013 12:30 am

NHE wrote:
AndrewKFletcher wrote:When I asked the question, I knew that my discovery in the circulation in trees and plants applied to the circulation in humans and all animal, even microscopic creatures


If I remember my botany course correctly, evaporation of water from the leaves combined with consumption of water during photosynthesis creates the driving force that pulls water up through the xylem from the roots to the leaves.


On the contrary, there is no definitive answer to how trees raise water to the leaves, just conjecture, disagreement and unsupported hypothesis, yet deemed sufficient to install it into every students mind. Shameful waste of education resources IMO.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby Rosegirl » Mon May 13, 2013 4:37 am

Blossom, I also couldn't deal with being on a total incline.

I went to an upholstery company and had them cut a wedge of firm foam that went the length of the bed. It cost about $100. It was never comfortable and the foam smelled awful, even weeks later after I tried to air it out.

Then I bought a wedge pillow. Google them, I think I bought mine from Sears. This pillow was narrow around the waist and I think it ended up about 12 inches high at the top of the bed. For me, it was too long and too high, so I cut the top part off.

Now, the narrow bottom of the wedge starts just under my pillow, and the highest part is about 4 inches and near the headboard.

I found it helps a lot, but it's still easy to get in and out of bed.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby CureOrBust » Mon May 13, 2013 5:56 am

AndrewKFletcher wrote:How could it be the body deciding to attack it's own nervous system and more to the point how can the myelin suddenly decide that it has finished attacking itself and begins to repair when the bed is tilted?
In regards to the auto-immune system, its not the myelin that attacks the myelin, its the immune system. I will assume that it was a typo. So, as for the immune system suddenly stopping attacking another organ in the body, there are tons of auto-immune conditions this occurs in. For one, EAE in mice I think can/often/always resolves itself ie it is self limiting. But it does exist and is definitely an auto-immune response in the animal. And by the way, tilting the bed does NOT work for everyone, so please do not state it as a fact.


AndrewKFletcher wrote:This is exactly what has happened with IBT for people with ms. The only logical explanations for the nervous system to begin to work after shutting down for many years lies in the compression / pinching scenario and the liquid crystal properties of myelin, which behave exactly the same as an LCD Computer monitor / TV. Send the power along the liquid crystal and maintain it's circulation and we can get that old broken screen to fire up again.
Not the ONLY logical response.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:In that same paper I wrote that the CSF flow is gravity dependent
There is also a built in pumping mechanism as well, not just gravity.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:IBT had restored the sight in two pwms at around the 4 month period and both cases were included in the Raised Bed Survey, conducted independently by the then Multiple Sclerosis Resource Centre. Both of their independent ophthalmologists asked the same question. How can placing block under a bed restore someone's sight?
And the answer still remains elusive, apart from the fact it came from a "survey". There is a reason medical studies are carried out in large populations using blinding protocols, and not just surveys. Let alone large blinded studies (remember, it could simply be rater blinded)

AndrewKFletcher wrote:but the reality of the matter is that the opposite IBT method has been proven and many unnecessary surgeries can be avoided by sleeping on an inclined bed.
That is a bold statement to make without any published, peer reviewed paper supporting it.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:On the contrary, there is no definitive answer to how trees raise water to the leaves, just conjecture, disagreement and unsupported hypothesis, yet deemed sufficient to install it into every students mind. Shameful waste of education resources IMO.
I was taught the same as NHE, and it is more scientifically supported than what you have stated. I am sure we even did little experiments at school showing the process. It is also a very different situation to CSF and blood, which travel through piped channels, and also posses a pumping process to aid the flow.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon May 13, 2013 7:46 am

Cure: There is no pumping process in CSF circulation.
The ascent of sap in tall trees is still open, Osmosis, Capillary action and Root pressure are dead in the water. The Cohesion tension theory relies on some magical undiscovered force that can suck water up a tree to great heights without breaking the beads of water and generating suction through a leaf with pores in it. Think about this for a minute and you will realise that to generate a pull of say 10 metres through a straw would be difficult, but if that straw was supple and full of holes (a lot like the current literature) it would be impossible to draw water up the straw at all and we can rule out any living processes because Strasburger proved the tree can be dead as a dodo and still circulate water for 3 weeks after it's death. So therefore the circulation in tubes is relevant to the circulation in trees and also relevant to the circulation in us.
Whether you believe the photographic evidence that varicose veins deflate using inclined bed therapy, which incidentally is the opposite to raising the legs, which is still the advice given by vascular surgeons, or not. This is a self evident truth that is plain for everyone to see. The before and after photographs show this effect. Why no study yet? Believe me it is not for the want of trying. For a start, we need access to patients and vascular surgeons earn a living out of repeat surgery. How many would want to prove there is no need for their services?

I never said the myelin attacks the myelin, I said the body decides to attack itself and eat away at the myelin, a process that one would think takes a long time, maybe even years and yet sudden improvements in people with ms are being reported, almost like switching as light on and too fast for a slow steady repair to be taking place.

I agree that not everyone benefits from IBT, but by comparison it is a far safer bet than surgery or drugs to test. If it don't work for some it intrigues me and I want to learn more about why it has and hasn't worked. For example, if a person with ms has 15 or more years of history with the illness, is it fair to expect recovery in 3 to 4 weeks or even months in every case?
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby Rosegirl » Mon May 13, 2013 1:21 pm

CureOrBust wrote:
AndrewKFletcher wrote:How could it be the body deciding to attack it's own nervous system and more to the point how can the myelin suddenly decide that it has finished attacking itself and begins to repair when the bed is tilted?


There is now a new view of what is causing "MS" symptoms and how best to treat them.

Until about a year ago, CCSVI theory said that blood did not drain fast enough from the skull. This led to a backup of blood that could cross the blood/brain barrier. That blood eventually left a residue of iron which in turn explained the autoimmune response. After a venoplasty, when the blood drained more quickly, that eliminated the iron deposits and stopped what triggered the immune response.

Now, some doctors are pointing out that the problem might also -- or instead -- include a delayed drainage of spinal fluid (CSF) which could also explain many of the symptoms we deal with. CSF drainage issues can sometimes be addressed by dental treatment and/or an AO/NUCCA chiropractor.

So where do you start? Many of us have realized that our symptoms started (or became worse) after a whiplash accident or other event that caused trauma to the neck although it might be years after the injury that symptoms appear. While it may be difficult to find a atlas orthogonal or NUCCA chiropractor, they are a lot cheaper to start with than a venoplasty. The same applies to the dentist who treats TMJ problems, not just a general dentist.

I had to do a lot of homework to convince my TMJ dentist that he might be able to get me off my scooter, but he looked at the research I gave him and now he has a specific game plan.

We're on our own here, folks. There is no one to manage and coordinate our care, let alone our bank accounts. In my opinion, whatever they say a course of treatment will cost, triple it, and if you can't afford it, don't waste the money on a partial treatment. You either trust your doctor and allocate a lot of money or just skip the treatment.

While an AO/NUCCA chiropractor may take months of treatment to get you results, it's still a lot cheaper than a venoplasty and doesn't involve any drugs whose side effects might just kill you.

As I said, we're all on our own.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Mon May 13, 2013 2:23 pm

Interesting paper highlights the problems with explaining csf circulation:

Respiratory Influences on CSF Fluctuation

The systolic pulse wave is well established as the primary impetus for CSF circulation, but there is evidence that the respiratory rhythm also plays a significant role. A recent study of CSF pressure oscillations in anesthetized rats found that the strongest oscillations were coincident with ventilatory chest movement (both spontaneous and mechanically assisted) rather than arterial pulse pressure. CSF pressure oscillations were found to be only weakly entrained to heart rate.29

Maier et al observed that normal respiration may induce periodic brain stem motion as strongly as systolic phase arterial expansion. The respiratory cycle drives a low-frequency oscillation of the brain stem, in which caudal brain displacement corresponds with expiration and cephalad rebound corresponds with inspiration. The effect is more pronounced with forced respiration. This respiratory phase pulse, superimposed upon the higher-frequency cardiovascular pulse, appears to influence cerebrospinal fluid fluctuation. Modified respiratory efforts affect CSF fluctuation in peculiar ways. Valsalva maneuver quickly causes caudad and then cephalad brain stem movement. Coughing causes a cephalad impulse in CSF flow.30 http://www.healtouch.com/csft/CSF_stasis.html
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby blossom » Mon May 13, 2013 5:31 pm

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Hello Blossom, it's good to hear from you again. If you have a length of sturdy say 3/4 plywood cut to same size as your mattress, have someone sand down all the edges to remove any splinters and place it under the mattress with some of those anti-slip mats they place under rugs, between the mattress and the board. When you press the button to raise the upper half it will tilt the whole mattress. You will need to put some tape on the frame to mark the angle you choose to use. This will enable you to transfer the same way you are doing.


thanks for the suggestion. but, that won't work for me either because once in i bring the bed up behind my back to help position better and lower down. then getting out i need the lift up bend of the top. i have tried just raiseing the top of bed to 4 or 6 inches but it doesn't feel the same and i snored like crazy.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby blossom » Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 pm

Rosegirl wrote:Blossom, I also couldn't deal with being on a total incline.

I went to an upholstery company and had them cut a wedge of firm foam that went the length of the bed. It cost about $100. It was never comfortable and the foam smelled awful, even weeks later after I tried to air it out.

Then I bought a wedge pillow. Google them, I think I bought mine from Sears. This pillow was narrow around the waist and I think it ended up about 12 inches high at the top of the bed. For me, it was too long and too high, so I cut the top part off.

Now, the narrow bottom of the wedge starts just under my pillow, and the highest part is about 4 inches and near the headboard.

I found it helps a lot, but it's still easy to get in and out of bed.

Hope this helps.



thank you rosegirl, i'll have to see how i can make this work for me. this mess they tagged ms can bring the creativity out in us for sure.
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Thu May 16, 2013 1:36 am

Now, some doctors are pointing out that the problem might also -- or instead -- include a delayed drainage of spinal fluid (CSF) which could also explain many of the symptoms we deal with. CSF drainage issues can sometimes be addressed by dental treatment and/or an AO/NUCCA chiropractor.


What could be causing the delay in csf drainage? What can affect CSF flow? Posture and gravity perhaps and the angle in which we sleep?
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby dlynn » Thu May 16, 2013 5:32 am

Hi Andrew,
Are you saying that IBT corrects CSF flow and aids in myelin repair? I've been using IBT for
approx. 2 years, only at 4 in. I have noticed I wake up clear headed, not the foggy feeling
pre IBT. (Now I just have to raise my bed another 2in.) Has any MS patient you know of , had improvement in balance. This is the one issue I struggle with most, dx 20yrs. ago.

Thank you
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Re: Thermodynamic Approach to Cerebrospinal Fluid Circulatio

Postby AndrewKFletcher » Thu May 16, 2013 6:46 am

Hi dlynn. Yes I have been saying this since 1995. If we can maintain cerebrospinal fluid flow by correcting our sleeping posture, damaged myelin should benefit. Stagnation of csf flow is common and detrimental. csf can also flow in the opposite direction so therefore cannot be directly influenced by the heart. I suspect most of these csf anomalies in flow are posture related. Up until this publication gravity was ignored in circulation because of erroneous literature that suggests gravity must act equally on all sides of the circulation.

There have been many reports of improved balance using IBT from pwms. That said, vertigo can be caused by crystals forming in the balance part of the ear. There are simple maneuvers that can be performed to correct this if it caused by crystals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QikUTAmeE0M

Raising your bed further to the correct angle will be interesting for a comparison, given that you have been at a 4 inch incline for 2 years. Please let us know how you get on. Andrew
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