One Vein, Two Vein, Red Vein, Blue Vein

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby chrishasms » Fri May 15, 2009 7:24 am

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Postby cheerleader » Fri May 15, 2009 7:33 am

chrishasms wrote:What type has blockages/ stenosis in both veins because based on my lesion load I would guess I have issues with both Azygous and the Jugulars.


Chris-
You'll probably be A or B (one or two jugulars, plus something in the azygos)
BUT more importantly, you'll be the "Chris Pattern"...because this will be unique to you, and you alone. Will be interesting to see if this is part of your MS, huh?
cheer
Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
http://ccsviinms.blogspot.com
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Postby notasperfectasyou » Fri May 15, 2009 1:53 pm

Marie and Cheer,
Maybe I put too much emphasis on the Zamboni paper. When I started reading it I thought it was cool how the blood can get around in a variety of circuits. How the V-Plex can empty into the L-REN and that can go either to the IVC or the AZY. It made real sense to me (from the diagrams) that a blockage in the L-REN would send blood back up the VPlex into the VVs. So now it's really hard to undo that when my basis for understanding how blood backs up and has to flow out another way (thereby causing excessive pressure in unexpected places) isn't working when I find that a lot of these things aren't even connected. Believe me, I'm TRYING. Then I google Intrarachidian Circle and I can't identify that as a part of the body. I need to break this all down into small pieces, but even that doesn't seem to work.

Image

So I drew an Azy on the picture above. I can also see from Gray's that the horizontal veins that come off the Azy are called Intercoastal Veins. I wonder if those are the 4 lines that lead into the Azy in Zamboni's diagram.

So before I continue, It's clear to me that things aren't as close together and linked as I previously thought. Now I need to try to see how they are linked, if at all and then how they effect each other. Now I CAN see, from my diagram above, how blockage in the IJV's might cause added pressure on the VV. Maybe we work with that.

Huge IJV/VV Question: How does the blood get redirected in the brain/head? Meaning (I'm going to have to use analogies here), in your house, a blocked toilet doesn't nessessarily mean the bath tub stops up, UNLESS, they are both linked at a "Y" somewhere, then blockage, clearly causes reflux, ick. But, as I understand the vein system, it starts at branches that work down to a trunk, so, where would two downflowing veins meet up from a junction? Meaning, the IJV and VV are like ---- it's like the toilet pipes coming to a junction where it splits into 2 pipes that take the waste out to the septic tank - a backwards use of the "Y" junction.

The only way this makes intuitve sense to me is if the brain is more like a ..... how about a sponge-filled whiffle ball. A bunch of inflows and a bunch of outflows that should yeild a normal pattern of certain inflows normaly going to certain places of outflow. But if one outflow get's blocked, the blood has to work it's way through the sponge to find another outlet. But, even this analogy causes probelms for me, the blood flow in the brain has to be more controlled than that, and wouldn't a blockage cause stroke or something like that? This discussion is purely speculative - entirely sourcing from my frustration in trying to understand seemingly simple diagrams. If I can find that the intercoastal veins meet up with the vertebral plexus, I'll feel like I've accomplished something. I hope the vertebral plexus is in the spine............

Have a great weekend! Ken

edit: Newer and maybe better analogies - a) the outbound sewer system that sends waste water to a treatment plant in a very controlled and leakproof network and b) the irrigation of a field were water comes in from a single source and it's distribution is not controlled very much.
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Postby mrhodes40 » Fri May 15, 2009 4:54 pm

VV Question: How does the blood get redirected in the brain/head?


Ken try to study this for a while --I found it very helpful...

http://www.ms-info.net/evo/msmanu/984.htm

In the second box down watch all the videos and things associated, I believe with your background this will mean a whole lot to you now!!

They have put cartoon movies on there that shows steps causing CCSVI. The venous systems are not labeled but you'll do fine now that you are all into it. I bet you saw this link before but could not understand it yet.

I find that as my understanding grows some things I saw before become more and more meaningful. I watched these last night myself... :D
I'm not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! Talk to your doctor about what is best for you...
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-7318-0.html This is my regimen thread
http://www.ccsvibook.com Read my book published by McFarland Health topics
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Postby notasperfectasyou » Mon May 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Thanks Marie,
I've actually done something I should have done days ago .....

A Day with Gray

My office is about 3 blocks from Reiters Book store. I have been too lazy to walk there .... well I also didn't think of it, despite it being where I first found a readable shelf copy of McAlpine's. They have an entire shelf dedicated to anatomy books. Hooray!

Enlightening.

So, first off, the veins that come from the head, don't run down the spine and then come through the kidneys and then up the azygos with the option of coming up the inferior vena cava. They don't do that. Nor does the azygos connect the superior vena cava and the inferior vena cava. They are not connected. I only spent a little while there, but I got it somewhat figured out.

The system works, roughly, in 3 loops. One loop sends blood to the head and back. Another sends blood to the arms, spine and other upper body parts (also called the Thorax - which I think is a cool Dr. Seuss sounding name). The final one sends blood to a whole lot of organs and your legs and back.

The vertebral plexus is the web of veins that cover the spine and the blood that exits there works into the intercostals on the way to the azygos. To be even more clear, blood is pumped from the heart, through arteries that land in the spine. The blood in the spine don't come from the head and neck.

Reiters is a scientific bookstore that serves the university complex in DC (George Washington, American and Georgetown).

An Amazing Alphabet Book

So I’m back to Zamboni’s diagrams. Type C uses the vertebral veins to empty the head since the jugulars are blocked. It also shows that blood can shunt to get to the azygos. I had to look up shunt, in this case it basically seems to mean that the blood is looking for alternative ways to get back to the heart. I will next try to understand what is meant by cervical or intracranial collateral circles.

Ken
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Postby Lyon » Mon May 18, 2009 3:33 pm

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Postby berriesarenice » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:44 pm

My all time favorite thread. Too good not to bump.
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Postby larmo » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:23 am

I'm just posting so I can be notified when a reply is posted in this thread. I want to keep track of this thread. This thread is great, I'm learning a lot. Please, keep it coming.
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Postby costumenastional » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:47 am

Larmo, good thinking.
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Postby msscooter » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:10 am

i'm glad you kept this. helped me out today, all this time later.
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Postby Brightspot » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:24 pm

Thanks for all your hard work notasperfect! This is a great thread. Am enjoying your comments and links almost a year after you put this up. Thx to mrhodes too!
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