chelation therapy

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Postby LR1234 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:26 am

I started a thread in the general section about chelation but will join this post instead;) I am interested in chelation and was looking into EDTA intravenously. Shye out of interest what is your current protocol?
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Re: chelation therapy

Postby NHE » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:33 am

To anyone considering chelation therapy with EDTA, please consider the following. EDTA will readily bind with many cations including magnesium, zinc and calcium. Failure to take this into account can have negative physiological consequences.

The table listed in the link below lists the formation complex constants for various metal ions and EDTA. Essentially, the data is a measure of how readily EDTA binds (complexes) with the metal ion. The larger the number, the stronger the binding affinity. For example, the formation constant for zinc (Zn2+) is 3.2x10^16 while for iron II (Fe2+) it's 2.1x10^14. This means that EDTA will bind to (and remove from the body) zinc (Zn2+) 150 times greater than it will bind to iron II (Fe2+).

In a nutshell, in addition to iron, EDTA will also remove magnesium, zinc, calcium and other important ions unless this effect is counteracted with supplementation.

Note: I'm not pretending to be an expert on chelation therapy. I'm just sharing a bit of my knowledge in chemistry.

http://www.cem.msu.edu/~cem333/EDTATable.html

By the way, yes, I see that the complex formation constant for EDTA and iron III (Fe3+) is 1.3x10^25 which is several orders of magnitude larger than it is for zinc. However, I do not know which form of iron is more prevalent in the body. There could also be a difference between iron in the blood vs. iron bound to tissues. In essence, chelation is more "complex" than it may first appear and, for my 2¢, a medical professional should be consulted prior to commencing therapy.


NHE :idea:
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Postby LR1234 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:46 am

Thanks NHE for all the info, The place that I have found that do the therapy give you an IV of supplements as well. I would assume that would include zinc, calcium and magnesium.
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Postby gainsbourg » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:27 am

As I am not the most regular visitor to the forum and have only just come across this very interesting thread today.

Those newer to the forum may not realise that there was a previous discussion about chelation ("Chelate or not to chelate") a year or so ago. Just put "chelation" into the Google search box in the left hand column and select the "This is MS" option.

Or go here:

http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-6606-0-d ... rasc-.html


Back then few people seemed that interested in the topic or its possible connection to CCSVI, but I originally started that thread more because of the role of the metabolism of iron.

When I originally underwent tests for MS, the doctors thought I may have a rare heridary illness called Friedreich's Ataxia. Tests proved I did not, but I became curious as it mimicked MS in so many ways...numb extremities, balance problems, heat fatigue, optical neuritis.
There was a huge breakthrough with this disease very recently when they unexpectedly discovered that Friedreich's was caused by faulty metabolism of iron.

This led me to suspect that MS may have a similar origin. So many neurological illnesses are starting to point the finger at iron - Parkinson's, Alzheimers etc. There is still the possibility that the "chicken and egg" question over CCSVI could be answered by saying that the iron deposits somehow lead to the vascular problems, not the other way round.

Recently I've come across an article suggesting that psychological stress can increase the intake of iron in some regions of brain and subsequently causes regional iron accumulation. (here)

Could this possibly help to solve the mystery as to why stressful episodes so often seem to precede MS attacks?

I am a huge fan of cheerleader and how she drew everyone's attention to the vascular theory of MS (some of you may also recall how ages ago, I was impressed with the quirky ebook by the Australian Noel Batten who had his own vascular theory linked to muscular tension).

But what fascinates me most is, if MS is primarily vascular, what causes the vascular problems in the first place?

If it was purely vascular in origin surely older people would start developing MS as the circulation naturally gets weaker with age...whereas MS hits people when they are in their prime.

Stress can have a negative effect on the vascular system directly. A very eminent anaesthesiologist in Iran, Mohammad Najmabadi, who founded the intensive care unit of Tehran Heart Hospital, is convinced that stress can cause brain strokes because "excessive thinking" overworks and damages the vasculature of the brain:

http://payvand.com/news/09/oct/1230.html



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Postby LR1234 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:57 am

I also think that iron (which can accumilate in different ways for different MS patients) is at the bottom of the progression.

I remember Cheer posting a paper about a lady who underwent a liver transplant, she had MS as was badly affected but after the liver transplant she got better. I reckon that the iron was being accumilated because of her under functioning liver causing the "MS" and once her liver functioned normally again the iron was removed.

Whether it is because of CCSVI, Hughes syndrome, metabolic problems, low Zinc levels all roads lead to accumilation of iron and therefore the progression of MS (my opinion).

I tried to talk to my neuro about it and his response was why don't all those with hemochromatosis develop MS and I said because the Hemo has been identified and treated and maybe lots of MS patients unknowingly do have this condition.

I am going to get my levels checked this week. Apparantly these are the tests to have: transferrin saturation (TS), serum ferritin level, and liver function tests
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Postby Algis » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:10 am

I would say with hemochroma patients got the iron in their liver and then the disease can be identified/treated. With CCSVI iron does not even accumulate in the liver (by excess?) but 'transpire' to brain cells because of blood stagnation in the stenosis...

It is pretty simple to imagine with my simple reason/brain

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Postby shye » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:09 pm

Gainsbourg
good thinking, and thanks for the links.
Don't forget also that a lot of us have Reynaud's Syndrome, with bad circulation in hands and feet (mine also affects my mouth and tongue)-
so it is widespread, sllghtly different for each of us, vascular problems--your further info on the iron is important I think.
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Postby shye » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:19 pm

LR1234
We've run into some problems starting my chelation---hope to start next tues the 12th--1st will just be of all the additions, ie, the minerals and vits in solution--I have severe allergies, and react to lots of stuff, so Dr is being careful, and if I get a reaction wants to be able to sort out what it is to. So with first run, no EDTA.
I will be doing Sodium EDTA, with different minerals and vits added--for the 2 1/2 or 3 hour drip. I'll get exact protocol when I go in, and post it.
Will be for at least 20, most probably 30 or so sessions. Urine and I think bloods willl be checked periodically.
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Postby LR1234 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Wow Shye, thank-you so much for sharing. I will follow your story with great interest. Where are you based? I am in the UK.
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Postby shye » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:30 pm

NHE
Chelation is only done by Doctors--MDs and ODs.
Urine (and at some point blood) testing is done frequently. The drip itself contains minerals and vitamins (in ratios worked out from the various affinities) as well as the EDTA, and if any deficiencies do result, would show immediately in testing, and would be supplemented.

I am not doing it for the iron--although if it helps that fine. I have Calcium deposit in carotid artery that shows up on x-ray. It is not causing disruption at the moment, (apparently can tell with stethescope if the artery sounds are not the way they should be), but I have too many health issues to want to let this continue. So am doing it to clear arteries, but know also it will clear veins, so hoping it will also get to the iron in brain--can't find any info on this. But have run into many anecdotal accts of MS being greatly improved--even the main advocates of chelation are not sure of exact mechanism of how helps MS, but they know it does. I am assuming just getting overall arteries and veins cleared would help, and if indeed it gets some of the wrongly deposited iron, all the better.

I will be posting of my experience regularly once I start.
Last edited by shye on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Cece » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:33 pm

gainsbourg wrote:If it was purely vascular in origin surely older people would start developing MS as the circulation naturally gets weaker with age...whereas MS hits people when they are in their prime.[/url]

gainsbourg


Lots of interesting info in your post.

If you have white matter lesions after the age of 60, that's not considered an abnormal MRI reading, because it starts to be seen at that age in regular people. Could it be that age-related vascular decline causes those?
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Postby gainsbourg » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:42 pm

cece said:

If you have white matter lesions after the age of 60, that's not considered an abnormal MRI reading, because it starts to be seen at that age in regular people. Could it be that age-related vascular decline causes those


good point
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Postby shye » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:47 pm

Cece,
Yes, with my last MRI, numerous lesions in white matter: aside from the MS, the radiologist advised to check vascular, coronary.
I know they can also show up with alzheimer's.

Since your "normal" over 60 doesn't usually get an MRI, I think there is lots we can teach the med profession here.

Would be interesting to get our MRI info tabbed by age, and research from that angle.
Last edited by shye on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby shye » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:59 pm

Hi LR1234
I'm in NYC; easy to find chelation drs here (not so easy in many places in the states). I am just very fortunate that I have been seeing an osteopathic doctor who does chelation. Have been using her for a number of years now. She is willing to explore stuff with me: for ex, my vision bad for years, optic neuritis with loss of sight for period of time, etc. And when got to her finally, she agreed to give me script for B12 to give myself shots. "Regular" docs would not do that since my blood levels of B12 were okay. Well, see better now than ever before, and more energy (do take mega doses of a number of other nutrients as well).
She sees I am doing much better, and is now willing to let me do the chelation.

I don't have time now, but will later post some good articles on chelation.
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Postby shye » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:15 pm

and thanks LR 1234 for bringing up the info from Cheer on the liver lady--I hadn't seen that. But is very interesting to me in light of fact I had severe liver damage a number of years ago--meds pushed me into liver failure, was not expected to live--tooks years to get better--so possibly I ran into same problem, that is, that the liver could not deal with iron (or much of anything), so it (as well as lots of other stuff I imagine) got deposited abnormally.
Again, all the more reason for me to start chelation!
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