Paleo Diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Paleo Diet discussion

Postby Mirry » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:11 pm

Hi everyone

I was wondering if anyone had tried this diet and if they had good results, comments etc.

Mirry



Here is an excerpt from their website: http://www.thepaleodiet.com

A New M.S. Diet Program: Treat Multiple Sclerosis with Diet

An emerging consensus among scientists who study autoimmune disease is that a number of autoimmune diseases, including Multiple Sclerosis, have an environmental trigger that originates from a leaky gut thereby allowing microbe and food antigens continual access to the immune system.

If you have M.S. or other autoimmune issues, this is a dietary program you can start on immediately that may reduce and potentially ameliorate symptoms of the disease. After following the program, we would be very interested in hearing a report on how it works for you.

In this program you will get a complete overview of the evolution of the human diet, and how certain modern foods may contribute to the growing incidence of M.S. and other autoimmune diseases in relation to this thesis. In particular, you’ll learn about the scientific evidence implicating dairy, beans, peanuts, whole grains, and even eggs and tomatoes in the origin and progression of this disease, and how you can adjust your own diet in response.

DVD PRESENTATION to the M.S. Society

The program includes a DVD of a presentation Dr. Cordain gave to the M.S. Society in Boulder, Colorado. Multiple sclerosis is an autoimmune disease in which the immune system destroys the myeline sheaths which cover and protect the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord. In the presentation, he explains how immune cells called T cells become sensitized to certain foreign proteins that structurally resemble myelin, and the critical role of diet in the process. You’ll learn which foods to avoid and why, and see some anecdotal data showing the positive results from for M.S. patients who have been following the program for a number of years.
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Postby sieren » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:37 pm

This is the type of diet that I've been following for the past year or so! It has worked WONDERS for my MS symptoms.
I started out on Betaseron and eating a standard (crappy) diet high in grains and dairy and sugar. Then I tried Copaxone + same crappy diet (LOL) and reacted to Copaxone so had to stop that. After that, I did some research and starting eating a more "whole foods" type diet (kind of Weston A. Price- style) but still with dairy and grains, and taking Low dose naltrexone. The relapse that I was having then (my 2nd, numb lower half of body + mental fog) did clear up after starting the LDN, but I still had the horrible fatigue and mental fog that I'd had all along as kind of my "baseline" MS symptoms. Then I learned about the Primal (paleo) diet, and figured out of EVERYTHING it made the most sense, and started it about last year this time. I eat lots of meat (pastured pork, grassfed beef, pastured chicken), seafood (wild alaskan salmon, shirmp, scallops, mussels), eggs, veggies, and berries. My occasional treats are super-dark chocolate (mmm 90% Lindt! I think I sometimes go a little overboard on the chocolate, so I'm cutting myself off for a bit hehe), fruits, and high-quality dairy (grassfed, cultured stuff like aged cheese). And every onece and a GREAT while, for a splurge, I'll have ice cream. :P I take vit. D, magnesium, iodine, fish oil when I eat grain-fed meat or anything else high in O 6's and digestive enzymes for my supplements. I try to focus more on replacing what I would be naturally getting via environment or diet if I lived in the ideal environment (i.e. the paleolithic era where humans evolved and got lots of sun, less stress, mineral rich water and veggies, etc)
Since about a few months into my new primal lifestyle, ALL of my MS symptoms have gone away! I know its not as impressive as it would be for someone with worse symptoms (I have RRMS and was Dx. very early--at age 18. Plus all my repalses (2 total, both numbness) had kind of resolved on their own) but it was a huge deal for me! I was so used to being healthy and super energetic, that the MS fatigue was a big blow to me. As a bonus, I lost about 15 stubborn lbs. that I gained in college (maninly fat around my middle).
I say, go for it! :D
good websites for reference:
www.marksdailyapple.com
www.paleonu.com
www.robbwolf.com

*whew* that was long haha! I guess I am just super excited about this, and really want to get the info out there to help people! I am thinking about maybe writing a book/brochure on the paleo diet and MS, to help other people but kind of to just get all my research and everything sorted out and down on paper for easy refrence.
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Postby harry1 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:37 am

Sieren

Thanks for posting about your experience with the Paleo diet as i've been looking into it along with the Blood Type diet (type-O) as i'm going to finish up my several containers of oatmeal and then give it a try and see what happens over time.

Thanks again !!
harry
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Postby sieren » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:19 pm

No problem :)
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BTD

Postby britney » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:43 pm

The Blood Type Diet has changed my life! My RRMS was advancing and I'd been in a relapse for over a year with no end in sight when I decided to "give the BTD a go" since nothing else worked for me. I was skeptical because I'd been on the Swank diet years previous with no results. Once I started to eliminate food from my diet according to my blood type (AB) I saw a huge change. All I hoped the diet would give me was to stop my symptoms from progressing, it did. I used to be so excited to get out of bed every morning just to see the improvements that had been made since the day previous. After a few months, I began living a life symptom-free of MS. I never, ever expected this much from a diet. I highly reccomend it. I was having a severe attack every 6 months or so. Since I've been on the BTD, I see very slight symptoms every 6 months; they never progress too bad and clear up quickly. I actually think this is the best I've felt since before I was diagnosed with MS 11 years ago.

Check out these sites:
dadamo.com
battleforhealth.com
Please visit my new blog to help build a community of a younger generation of MS'ers<br />youngms.blogspot.com<br />
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Postby StayHealthy » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:09 am

I talked my doctor about the diet, he said while it may be okay short term he did not recommend it long term. So Instead he sent me to a nutritionist who said I could do a modified version. She didn't like the large amount of meat eaten even if it was grass fed organic -(could cause heart attacks) So I do not have meat with every meal. But when I do I make sure it has no hormones and organic as possible . No veal. Lean meat and I eat lots of fish like wild salmon. I am on a no sugar diet or eat as little as possible. I am allowed a occasional treat once in awhile and I mean small treat like a piece of dark chocolate . She felt I needed VIT D which the paleo diet is low in, so I can have low fat dairy but to stay away from high processed foods and processed cheese . I eat lots of vegetables and I am allowed healthy grains - but no white flour no white potatoes, sweet potatoes are ok . Stay away from nightshades. I use olive oil on my bread instead of butter. In other words I eat healthy and no sugar. I read labels.
I be wary of people selling new diets. healthy eating is what is the best! There are also scientists who do not believe in global warming. But most do.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby harry1 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:04 pm

For those interested in the paleo diet i thought that i'd post the link to this paleo forum site called ''Paleo Hacks'' that i reciently discovered as it's purely an Question and Answer about paleo lifestyle format.

Anyway for those interested.
http://paleohacks.com/#axzz1s9UJJlFN
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Re:

Postby tedhutchinson » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:44 am

StayHealthy wrote:She didn't like the large amount of meat eaten even if it was grass fed organic -(could cause heart attacks) So I do not have meat with every meal. But when I do I make sure it has no hormones and organic as possible . No veal. Lean meat and I eat lots of fish like wild salmon.
Do be aware that a lot of the evidence against red meat is fundamentally flawed. There was a recent paper from Harvard that is fairly typical against red meat this part has been thoroughly castigated by an awful lot of very sensible people. I could provide more versions of the latest debunking of that research but I think if you read those you'll get the drift.

I am allowed a occasional treat once in awhile and I mean small treat like a piece of dark chocolate
Ideally with as much cocoa solids as possible You can get 81% at Lidl if you look and there are even stronger types available if you are lucky.

She felt I needed VIT D which the paleo diet is low in,
Indeed NO ONE can get sufficient vitamin D from food. At best it can provide only about a tenth of our daily needs. We evolved as mammals that lived outdoors without clothing and those with the palest skin, least hair were best adapted to surviving in the most northerly latitudes. The evolutionary advantage pale hairless bodies provide is increased Vitamin D production 10,000 ~ 20,000iu/daily are typical, even for modern humans if you carefully expose all your skin surface for 20 mins or so at midday providing your don't burn and you cover that skin with clothing afterwards to prevent it from degradation from UVA exposure later in the day. We need those kinds of intakes because the half life of vitamin D is roughly 21 ~ 29 days. So to get through the winter (October through to March) means we have to store vitamin D3 in tissue. In the same way you can only save money after your daily income exceeds your daily expenditure so you can only store vitamin d when your daily needs have been met. This occurs around 40ng/ml 100nmol/l but to be able to measure reasonable amounts of stored vitamin D in tissue in everyone levels have to be around 60ng/ml or 150nmol/l
To get the average UK adult above 150nmol/l requires around 1000iu daily for each 25lbs they weigh so a minimum of 5000iu/daily plus sun exposure is required in addition to the amount of vitamin d you can obtain from your food supply.

Anyone worried about toxicity can get a £25 25(OH)D test from
"City Assays Vitamin D Blood Spot Test"

so I can have low fat dairy but to stay away from high processed foods and processed cheese
So perhaps your nutritionist can explain how your brain operates when short of fat?
How does it repair itself if it's major raw material is in short supply?
How do fat soluble vitamins get into the body if there is little or no fat to carry them?
Surely people with MS have to look after their brains even more than everyone else and we all know the brain is 60% fat content.
In order to apply the brakes to appetite our digestive system requires FAT to activate the release of the satiety hormones. Telling people to remove fat from the diet and use will-power and self-control to regulate appetite is a unsafe and dangerous as telling people to remove the brakes from their cars and just use will-power and self-control to regulate speed. It's nutritionists recommending low fat diets that have driven the obesity rates higher than ever year on year. Eventually they will realise just how badly they've got it wrong but until we reject that particular mantra we will continue to see yearly rises in diabetes, dementia, cancer, obesity rates.

I be wary of people selling new diets. healthy eating is what is the best!
I think we agree on that. Paleo diets that try to mimic the diets human dna evolved to consume cannot be described as NEW diets. They depend on starting with RAW ingredients rather than processed or industrially prepared foods. Many use COCONUT oil as being the best fat to prepare food with. Because it has a lot of Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCT) it's particularly useful for anyone with brain problems. Human breast milk is also a good source of MCT so if it's good for the baby's brain development it will be good for your brain function repair/maintenance. Many people are finding it helpful for those with dementia.

We ought to remember the way archaeologists often identify paleo sites of human habitation is from the bone shards that result from breaking bones for their FAT content. In primitive cultures its the FATTIEST part of the carcase that are most prized. We should also think of PALEO lifestyle as well as diet as human DNA is set to produce the anti inflammatory anti-biotic antioxidant Vitamin D from dawn to dusk and the antibiotic anti-inflammatory anti-oxidant melatonin from dusk to dawn. Getting the benefits of sunlight/birght light exposure through the day and total darkness through the night should not be overlooked.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby cg50in » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:55 pm

Worked miracles for me. High fruits, veggies(heavy on the greens), wild game(vension) lots of fish. Sardines, kippers for snacks I know Yuck.
Avoid all Lectin foods, grains esp wheat glutens, potatoes, legumes, tomatoes but eat some rice. Total relapse, energy wayback, fog gone and feel better than I have for many years. BTW I have blood type O for what its worth.
Get sunlight when I can wihtout overdoing it and take Vitamin D3 when I can't. Take fish oil, grape seed extract.
Also eat lots of berries and tree nuts.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby CaveMan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:34 pm

Really glad to see this discussion here and that someone is getting positive outcomes.
I have posted our story in Introductions, but you can guess my philosophy from my username.
Although we have been following this concept, i have to say, it was very very loosly,
but with the information I have read about recently, I think we are heading into a hard core regression.
I have looked at a lot of the Paleo links in the past, but I stumbled across this little story which i think some would find very interesting.
http://www.direct-ms.org/rogermcdougall.html
Basically first person to recover from advanced MS & first proponent of Paleo Diet for MS remission, diagnosed in 1953, confined to wheelchair soon after, determined paleo diet was the answer for him, took appropriate action, walked out of the wheelchair, lived an active & productive life he died in 97 at the age of 88 with no MS symptoms.
I have looked at lots of other stuff, but found his story very inspirational and wonder why establishment is still so far behind on dietary advice.
I know it is not the solution for everyone, but there is so much circumstantial evidence around both in scientific studies as well as the numerous blogs, forum discussions around that someone would fund a full blown clinical trial.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby tedhutchinson » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:30 am

CaveMan wrote:I know it is not the solution for everyone, but there is so much circumstantial evidence around both in scientific studies as well as the numerous blogs, forum discussions around that someone would fund a full blown clinical trial.
The problem is that there are so many variables.
Ideally before a trial starts we would have to correct the micronutrient deficiency states that modern foods have created.
As most of the trial participants would need to raise vit d/magnesium/omega 3/melatonin status levels with effective amounts that would take around 2/3 years to get trial participants to a 25(OH)D above 150nmol/l, and omega 3<>6 ratio around 1<>1 magnesium deficiency corrected and appropriate time release melatonin/or melatonin secretion improvement in place.

Most trials don't start with everyone on a level playing field and most trials never actually attain let alone maintain natural levels for Vit d/omega3/magnesium/melatonin let alone do ALL of these at the SAME time. These work TOGETHER as a team and the combined effect is greater than the sum of the parts used separately.

Our cave man ancestors didn't have any option. They couldn't avoid getting vitamin d from dawn to dusk, or melatonin from dusk to dawn all their food was magnesium rich (compared to modern agricultural produce) and all their veggies/meats were organic or free range.

I can't see how a proper trial where anti-inflammatory status achieved from consideration of the way Vitamin d works in conjunction with magnesium and omega 3 levels and is also complemented by the actions of melatonin, could be conducted.
We have to understand just how complicated our system is. Only after we have established a natural anti-inflammatory status will we develop a less pathogenic gut flora and given the antibiotic residues in meat and water supplies it's difficult to see how a trial without the use of antibiotics could be conducted.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby CaveMan » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:04 am

So what you are effectively saying is that the bulk of clinical trials are irrelevent, because all other body nutrient levels were not at the same ideal place when the trial was started.
Would it not be the case that if all nutrient leveles were at their correct levels, it is unlikely that a trial would be required because you would be starting with a group of healthy individuals.
I still believe that if you had a significant population sample and applied an appropriate dietary regimen along with a selected number of nutrients and compared those to a similar group that just used the recommended conventional drug treatment would yield useable data.
Either a greater percentage would show a greater improvement, or less degeneration than the control or not.
I do think part of the issue with medicine & research is the obsessive search for the singular key, but it is in fact an environment that needs to be corrected not a single compound.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby tedhutchinson » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:00 am

CaveMan wrote:So what you are effectively saying is that the bulk of clinical trials are irrelevent, because all other body nutrient levels were not at the same ideal place when the trial was started.
Sure it's a bit like doing a car fuel economy trial comparing the performance of a range of cars without actually ensuring all the tyres of all the vehicles were properly inflated when common sense should tell you a) in this case none of the vehicles have tyres inflated to the makers specifications.

Would it not be the case that if all nutrient leveles were at their correct levels, it is unlikely that a trial would be required because you would be starting with a group of healthy individuals.
That is true. The fault researches make is they assume that "HEALTHY individuals" are people who aren't on prescription medications and haven't a diagnosed chronic condition. The fact they are all individuals with varying degrees of subclinical micro nutrient deficiency and on the road to metabolic syndrome/diabetes/cancer.

I still believe that if you had a significant population sample and applied an appropriate dietary regimen along with a selected number of nutrients and compared those to a similar group that just used the recommended conventional drug treatment would yield useable data.
I'm sure it's possible to do very much better than we are doing. The trouble is the medical/nutritional research journals depend on PEER REVIEW to permit publication. So in order to get your paper published it has to suit not only the folks who fund the research, the journal that is going to host the publication but also the scrutiny of the Peer reviewers.
So say you want to get a paper published showing the health benefits of saturated fat who is going to peer review that potential publication?
If you want to publish a paper knocking the use of supplements no problem, That will please the journals dependent of big pharma adverts, please the peer reviewers who are in the pockets of big pharma and will no doubt also attract funding.
I think it's part of the reason why papers tend not to use effective FORMS of vits/mins/sups they tend not to allow the trial to run long enough to correct deficiency status let alone time for benefits to appear.
There is FAR FAR too much research where they fail to measure variables before during after the trial. Any vit d research which doesn't mention 25(OH)D is pointless. It's not the intake that matters but the 25(OH)D attained/maintained through the trial.

I'm firm believer in PUBMED and spend time every day reading as much research as I can but it is extremely depressing because so much of it should NEVER see the light of day.
We should have far less but much better research.
Last edited by tedhutchinson on Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:16 pm

in a nutshell, i agree. some of the dumbass crap i've seen...
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Postby CaveMan » Tue May 01, 2012 12:54 am

I don't understand all the scientific/medical jargon, I can get there if I focus on it and check all the cross references etc. but that takes forever, and I think that is part of the problem of how research is focussed, apart from the fact that most is funded by organisations that have a vested interest in selling product, it is also that medicine is still stuck in the concept that there is neatly defined boundaries which segregate cells, organs & functions, so there is a focus on a singular compound to determine if that is the cause, testing each in isolation always comes out with a negative result.
Bit like the car crash, we tested all the individual items in isolation on a perfectly tuned test vehicle, tyres, brakes, steering, suspension, driver texting on mobile, screaming kids in the back seat, wet road, overloaded boot/trunk etc. And our tests proved conclusively that none of these factors caused our test vehicle to crash, therefore there is no conclusive evidence that any of these factors caused the vehicle in question to crash. But it did and all these factors may well have contributed to the crash.
Whenever I hear those words "no conclusive scientific evidence that ????? causes this condition" I always (I am a visual guy) Imagine it like an auditorium with us as the audience, a speaker (modern medicine, big pharma) at centre stage uttering the words and the "smoking man" (x-files)representing (Gluten, Dairy, Candida, etc.) at the fringes of the auditorium or side stage just quietly puffing away observing the goings on. Somehow everytime I read these studies I see lots of smoke, but still looking for the ignition point, so I try to stand back from the jargon and see patterns in the bigger picture and at the moment I firmly believe it is like the car crash analogy, there is not a singular item and we should not just be looking for the singular item relating to a specific autoimmune condition, but what are the conditions that open an opportunity for an autoimmune condition to present.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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