Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possible?

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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:42 am

fair enough, but you still need to wash out for a few days before the test anyway. so if you want to take copper for a couple more days before stopping, that's probably not a huge deal. it's your decision after all. from here, i'm simply considering that 1. you report feeling worse since taking copper in spite of poor copper status on your test, and 2. you don't have a urine ceruloplasmin result to potentially help discern whether you may have some sort of copper handling issue. not just talking about wilson's although i know ceruloplasmin tests are used when docs are looking at that. read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceruloplasmin if you have copper deficiency and resulting anemia/neuropathy because your handling systems are off for some reason, you had better know it rather than continuing to throw copper into a broken machine. i have suffered in a few different ways over the years by adding things into a broken system without having all the info to make it work. i darn near killed myself (literally) by throwing high purine food (intended to elevate low uric acid levels) into a body that did not have enough liver zinc stores to process the toxic ammonia byproducts of amino acid ingestion, into uric acid. your situation with copper may be totally different. and again, it is your decision.

re toxins.. are you joking? it's the WORLD'S HEALTHIEST FOODS web site, sheesh. yes phytates are anti-nutrients, not toxins which simply means that without a certain amount of processing, they bind important minerals like zinc. that just means you have to balance them with intakes of zinc rich foods to compensate. phytates are why we generally don't eat legumes raw. we prepare them the ways we do in order to mitigate against the phytates, and thereby benefit from the fibre and nutrition.

here's the kind of info i was HOPING you would take away from that resource:

What's New and Beneficial about Black Beans
Recent research has shown that black beans provide special support for digestive tract health, and particularly our colon. The indigestible fraction (IF) in black beans has recently been shown to be larger than the IF in either lentils or chickpeas. It has been shown to be the perfect mix of substances for allowing bacteria in the colon to produce butyric acid. Cells lining the inside of the colon can use this butyric acid to fuel their many activities and keep the lower digestive tract functioning properly. By delivering a greater amount of IF to the colon, black beans are able to help support this lower part of our digestive tract. Lowered colon cancer risk that is associated with black bean intake in some research studies may be related to the outstanding IF content of this legume.
A recent study that may help put this controversy to rest looked at many different advantages and disadvantages of tossing out the water used to soak beans. It found that the advantages clearly outweigh the disadvantages. On the advantage side of things, getting rid of the soaking water also means getting rid of some of the phytates and tannins that can lower nutrient availability. It also means reducing flatulence-related substances like raffinose (up to 33% removed along with the soaking water) and stachyose (up to 20% removed). A final advantage was the retention of resistant starch. While some of the total carbohydrate content in the black beans was lost along with the discarding of the soaking water, the amount of resistant starch remained unchanged. (Resistant starch is a type of carb that will typically make its way all the way down to the large intestine without being digested. Once it arrives in the large intestine, it can help support the growth of desirable bacteria in that area of the digestive tract.) On the disadvantage side of things was that 15% of total phenols were lost, we actually don't think that that is an amount that is of concern. There was a slight loss of some additional phytonutrients as well as minerals. When adding up all of their findings, the researchers concluded that the many advantages of discarding bean soaking water clearly outweighed the disadvantages and then made this recommendation a firm part of their research conclusions.
We tend to think about brightly colored fruits and vegetables as our best source of phytonutrients, but recent research has recognized black beans as a strong contender in phytonutrient benefits. The seed coat of the black bean (the outermost part that we recognize as the bean's surface) is an outstanding source of three anthocyanin flavonoids: delphinidin, petunidin, and malvidin. These three anthocyanins are primarily responsible for the rich black color that we see on the bean surface. Kaempferol and quercetin are additional flavonoids provided by this legume. Also contained in black beans are hydroxycinnamic acids including ferulic, sinapic, and chlorogenic acid, as well as numerous triterpenoids.
In Brazil—a country that, along with India, grows more black beans than any country in the world— beans have been given an exclusive place on the Brazilian Food Pyramid. In other words, beans are recommended as their own unique food group! The country's 2006 Food Guide for the Brazilian Population recommends that beans be consumed at least once every day. That recommendation is actually quite close to the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which establish 3 cups of cooked legumes per week, or 1/2 cup serving six days per week, as the minimum desired amount. Recent research linking bean intake to lower risk of type 2 diabetes, many types of cardiovascular disease, and several types of cancer was one of the key factors used by the Brazilian government and the U.S. government in establishing their bean intake recommendations.

eat your beans. in moderation. soaked and cooked, not raw 7:|

will check back re those weights and measures :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:21 pm

its okay, i've stopped ALL my vitamins today, including copper. can't get much worse than i am at the moment,
i remember i stopped all my vitamins in August and September for my other bloods, 5 days off vitamins each time, before bloods being drawn

I weighed my dinner meat = Organic Beef mince patties with salt/pepper/garlic, i had 2 patties , each ones raw weight = 100-105 grams, cooked (george forenman grill) weight 85-90 grams each patty.
ill weigh the afternoon chicken & salmon tomorrow

i spoke to my GP today and explained my concerns re: anemia/low red count and he authorised for me to have a serum ferritin test, but i also asked for the urine ceruloplasmin and he refused, saying the ferritin was what i needed and that it can only be requested at the hospital as it is a complicated test,
problem is, i called the hospital asking if i can get blood tests when i come for the MRI and they said no, and that i wont see a dr, i will just have an MRI scan,
my next appointment with the neurologist isnt till May!
- i asked if i could get cu tested, and he said it was too soon since my last test so doesn't think it would be any different,

so looks like im going to just have the ferritin test, but once i said my concern of wilsons disease, he didnt think i had it based on my symptoms but said he will also do a liver test to see if there are any issues with my liver,
he also stressed my copper reading was only fractionally below the range and i shouldnt be concerned.


no i did take on board the benefits of legumes, i just recall Dr Wahls book discussing problems with phytates, but you've helped me understand better now,
i just find it difficult to go against what dr wahls says/recommends in her book = no legumes,
so even though eating legumes may help me, going against the only hope i've got in regaining function by following the wahls diet, is a difficult route to take and accept,
thats why i havent just stopped the wahls diet after this worsening... its my only hope/choice


- how frequently and how much would be a sensible amount of legume to consume, say, per week?


- i will hopefully have my bloods drawn this Monday

thanks JL
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby lyndacarol » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

This article mentions Wahls Paleo diet and another which she called simply the Wahls diet:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/meryl-dav ... 58056.html

Modification may be necessary for you, dc10. I still think your problems could stem from excess insulin; I encourage you to request a "fasting blood insulin test."
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:15 pm

THANK GOD lost the post and managed to save it ... on we go:

good to hear you stopped the supplements for a while.

as for testing, at least ferritin will be a good piece of info to have. hopefully whatever liver tests will end up being useful too. at least you have until monday to wash out.

anyway. if the doc doesn't think urine ceruloplasmin is an issue, then i won't worry about it either :roll: we'll just have to work on the fat and protein and hope for the best re copper absorption.

the only problem with phytates is too much, too often, improperly processed, and imbalanced with other dietary components. i need to look up which micronutrients are most affected but zinc always seems to be right up there. i even read something suggesting that soil zinc depletion results in an overly high phytate/zinc ratio in plants and by extension plant foods. so, makes even MORE sense to make sure you have a really good supply of mineral dense foods at hand, not to mention an excellent multi.

for example i like that bit on chickpeas where they say if you soak them for long enough, eg 4 hours, before cooking, it activates naturally occurring phytase enzyme in the food, which starts breaking down the phytate.

now, as for starting with legumes. you could make your life easy by starting with lentils. so quick and easy to use from dried, and if you can find canned lentils that don't have a bPA liner, then so much the better - not as much diff between canned lentils and dry. it's not like fresh vs canned veg. the cook in no time, especially those little red ones.
info on lentils:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=52

as for daily amount, they say 1/2 c per day of cooked legumes is recommended. if you chose to get it in soup form, 1c per day should get you close, given that it's thinner.

one soup i really like is basically two minced onions sauteed in a little curry paste, tossed w/ 1c. washed red lentils, then add about 6c. water (i'm estimating about double what you'd need for a lentil side dish, since it's going to be soup), plus an organic chicken bouillon cube, bay leaf, and a squeeze of lemon. salt and pepper to taste, and simmer until it gets to a nice consistency.

yay lentils!

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... ce&dbid=52
Lentils, a small but nutritionally mighty member of the legume family, are a very good source of cholesterol-lowering fiber. Not only do lentils help lower cholesterol, they are of special benefit in managing blood-sugar disorders since their high fiber content prevents blood sugar levels from rising rapidly after a meal. But this is far from all lentils have to offer. Lentils also provide good to excellent amounts of six important minerals, two B-vitamins, and protein—all with virtually no fat. The calorie cost of all this nutrition? Just 230 calories for a whole cup of cooked lentils. This tiny nutritional giant fills you up—not out.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:16 pm

i'll get back to you with protein info after i hydrate/caffeinate :)
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:55 pm

oh yea and re the beef patties.. are they ready made? and if so, what brand? i might be able to get specific info.. rather than guessing whether these are lean or extra lean or whatever.. would help to know % lean meat vs % fat.. if there was any info on the package.. ??? anyway. on the surface, looking pretty decent. total fat and protein for two patties would make a good contribution to the day's needs. depending on what kind of hamburger. i calculated based on 85% lean 15% fat.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/bee ... cts/6200/2
so 24g fat, 10 of it sat fat, and 40g protein.
an equivalent amount of chicken breast (eg 170g) with no skin would be about 6g fat (10%DV), 2g of that sat fat (4% DV), and 50g protein.
i had a look at my protein needs and i'd probably be okay with 80g daily, myself.
so far today my eggs have provided me with 12g protein and ~6g fat or 10% of my daily fat and sat fat needs.. my back bacon slices got me.. let's say 15g protein and again around 6g fat, another 10% of my daily fat and sat fat values. looks like i'd better get busy on some dinner! :) hehehe
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:59 am

a read for you. might contain some useful pointers. also clarifies wahls diet vs wahls paleo. i'm not sure that what works for dr wahls should be applied uniformly to all patients. still waiting to see if there are more than subjective measures involved in evaluating the efficacy of this protocol.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/meryl-dav ... 58056.html
Can you describe your eating plan?
I'd learned about the hunter-gatherer/Paleo diet in 2002 and followed it then. [The diet bans grains, dairy, sugar, soy and legumes, primarily leaving free-range meats and organic vegetables and fruits, in any quantity.] But I continued to decline. Eventually, I tweaked the produce into specific categories, and that's when the magic began to happen.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:03 am

thanks for the paleo link, its just a shame Dr Wahls 'new book isnt out till 2014,
i could really do with strict guidelines of The Wahls paleo diet - i do appreciate one size doesn't fit all though

After having an eye test with an optician a few weeks back, he saw signs of nystagmus - involuntary vibrating/twitching/jerking of the eyes, -i never noticed anything besides my reading vision had deteriorated (im only in my late 20's though)

i never realised but have seen my vision when reading get a bit worse /blurry over the months (mainly after eating a meal), and that when i close one eye my vision improves greatly, which makes sense with the nystagmus.
..So the optician has asked my GP to refer me to the hospital for Ophthalmological and Orphoptic assesment, even though there is no treatment for nystagmus
and after reading this on Wilson's disease:

http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_2051980_diagn ... sease.html
Have your eyes tested. An ophthalmologist can use a testing device to detect abnormal deposits of copper in the eye, forming a rusty ring around part or all of the cornea. The presence of this ring almost always indicates Wilson's Disease.

so hopefully this ophthalmologist im seeing soon can detect Wilson's Disease

- a nurse took my blood this morning, so have only been off the supplements for 1.5 days, but it was either now or mid January so i opted to have them drawn now,
i did stop the ferrous furmarate iron 8 days ago (i took it for 4 days)so hopefully it hasn't impacted my serum ferritin levels,
i checked the form and i am also getting a Full blood count, serum ferritin and liver function tests
- i will continue with no vitamins for at least a week, maybe longer.

the beef patties are just organic beef mince with herbs added myself
The Beef mince =
Per 100g % based on GDA
Energy 1070kJ -
258kcal 12.9%
Protein 18.2g 40.4%
Carbohydrate 0.1g -
Total Sugars 0.1g 0.1%
Fat 20.5g 29.3%
Saturates 10.3g 51.5%
Mono unsaturates 9.6g -
Polyunsaturates 0.6g -
Fibre 0.1g 0.4%
Sodium 0.10g

another meat weighed (which i have 3 times a week) = 2x Salmon fillets seasoned raw = 230 grams / once grilled - 180g for 2 seasoned salmon fillets

- tomorrow i can also get the nutrient values for the organic chicken and salmon i use if that helps



yesterday i was very down/depressed for no real reason, this is very unlike me as i'm normally happy-go-lucky and this was a big change of character, i've noticed this temporary change of character over the last few weeks/month or two,
do you think this could be connected to the low red cells ?


thanks
Last edited by dc10 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:05 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:23 am

Barge (again)

Low magnesium can cause nystagmus. In keeping with my aldosterone obsession, here is a link connecting all three...
http://www.livestrong.com/article/52014 ... imbalance/

Hth
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:25 pm

hey there,

can't find it published but:
In our study, Nutrition, neuromuscular electrical stimulation (NMES) and secondary progressive multiple sclerosis (SPMS), we follow twenty individuals for thirty-six months as they use the same treatments I developed for myself. The first eight have already completed the first twelve months of the intervention, with favorable preliminary data, (one of our subjects is moving from cane and walker dependence to beginning to jog again), which was presented at the 2011 Neuroscience Conference in Washington, D.C. November 13...


other than that it's just the case study measures, great results but n=1 and too subjective:
Table 2. NARCOMS survey questions and patient responses
Date questions answered............................11/23/2005 6/2/2006 11/28/2006 5/5/2007...........12/12/2007............4/30/2008
Compare your overall MS symptoms now
with what you experienced 6 months ago.
Is your MS:......................................................Worse......Worse.........Worse....Worse...Somewhat Better..........Much Better
Rate your MS symptoms overall ....................Moderate...Moderate....Moderate.Moderate................Minimal....................None
Fatigue symptoms........................................Moderate.....Severe...........Total......Total...............Moderate.....................Mild


and this one on just the neuromuscular component...
Mean of years of diagnosis was 10.4 (range, 4–15), and mean EDSS score at presentation was 5.9 (range, 4.5–6.5). Mean of days of NMES was 140 (range, 22–495). Mean EDSS scores improved by 0.78 (range, 0–2.0).


back on the copper track..
Role of copper in human neurological disorders
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/3/855S.full

full text would be nice on this one. wish i could see the coexisting nutrient deficiencies...

Clinical significance of the laboratory determination of low serum copper in adults.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17727313
Abstract
BACKGROUND:Low serum copper is often indicative of copper deficiency. Acquired copper deficiency can cause hematological/neurological manifestations. Wilson disease (copper toxicity) is associated with neurological manifestations and low serum copper, with copper deposited in tissues responsible for the toxicity. Low serum copper can also be observed in some carriers of the Wilson disease gene and aceruloplasminemia. This study was undertaken to determine the clinical significance of low serum copper.
RESULTS:In six of the 57 patients with low serum copper, the low copper was due to Wilson disease. In the remaining 51 patients, copper deficiency due to an underlying cause was identified in 38 as a reason for the low serum copper. The most commonly identified neurological manifestation of copper deficiency was myeloneuropathy. Coexisting nutrient deficiencies and hematological manifestations of copper deficiency were often but not invariably present.
CONCLUSIONS:Copper deficiency, Wilson disease (or a carrier state), and aceruloplasminemia are all associated with low serum copper. The presence of coexisting neurological or hematological manifestations that are recognized sequelae of copper deficiency should be considered prior to making a diagnosis of copper deficiency. Gastrointestinal disease or surgery is a common cause of acquired copper deficiency. Even in patients in whom low serum copper is indicative of copper deficiency, the cause of the copper-deficient state may not be evident.


i wish you were able to get that urine ceruloplasmin test. it makes no sense for you to have low copper and then feel worse when you add a supplement.

that said, do you have this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kayse ... r_ring.jpg

as for nystagmus wow there's loads you can do to treat that. .

Nutritional nystagmus in infants.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3928866
Suspicion of a B vitamin deficiency resulted in correct diagnosis of dietary deficiency and/or enzymatic defect. In both instances, dietary treatment with B vitamins resulted in resolution of the nystagmus and improved growth and development of both individuals

Nystagmus: Overlooked Causes and Treatments
www.ctds.info/nystagmus.html
Many web sites on nystagmus do not mention the role of nutrition as a possible cause of the disorder. However, there are a significant number of medical papers on nystagmus being caused by nutritional deficiencies and cured by the correction of those same nutritional deficiencies, usually magnesium or thiamin.
.....Magnesium metabolism in childhood.
..... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8264 ... t=Abstract
Hypomagnesemia in childhood is relatively frequently noted ... Myopia and horizontal nystagmus are often present
.....Magnesium deficiency. Etiology and clinical spectrum.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7020 ... t=Abstract
The manifestations can be divided into the following categories: totally non-specific symptoms and signs ascribable to the primary disease; neuromuscular hyperactivity including tremor, myoclonic jerks, convulsions, Chvostek sign, Trousseau sign (rarely), spontaneous carpopedal spasm (rarely), ataxia, nystagmus and dysphagia; psychiatric disturbances from apathy and coma to some of all facets of delirium; cardiac arrhythmias including ventricular fibrillation and sudden death; hypocalcemia which is responsive only to Mg therapy; and hypokalemia which is not easily nor completely corrected without Mg therapy.


you can read on for yourself re the studies on nystagmus and b vitamins. also fyi magnesium activates b vitamins. may regulate action of b6 and b12 (dog study). mag deficiency may aggravate thiamin deficiency (case study). both b6 and b12 are related to mood and magnesium itself to anxiety so that could be part of how you're feeling today.

Extracellular magnesium regulates effects of vitamin B6, B12 and folate on homocysteinemia-induced depletion of intracellular free magnesium ions in canine cerebral vascular smooth muscle cells: possible relationship to [Ca2+]i, atherogenesis and stroke
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4099006837

Aggravation of Thiamine Deficiency by Magnesium Depletion: A Case Report
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

good to see all that info on fats and protein. will check out the amounts for 230g salmon, grilled. sure you can send the info on the chicken and salmon tomo.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:49 pm

re aldosterone, that's interesting given that magnesium supplements raise aldosterone levels

Oral magnesium supplementation in patients with essential hypertension.
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/13/3/227.full.pdf

also interesting: stress depletes magnesium and temporarily elevates aldosterone

Anxiety and stress among science students. Study of calcium and magnesium alterations
http://www.jle.com/e-docs/00/04/1D/1B/article.phtml

hyperaldosteronism is one of many routes to magnesium deficit. one obvious other possibility is depletion via imbalanced vit d3 supplementation... as discussed on p. 3 of this topic.
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:12 am

-RE Copper,
while i have been feeling worse, symptoms and mobility , there has been several variables. so its unlikely the increased (6/8mg) copper is causing problems, based on my mild deficiency.
but on the same token, should i have been feeling better afta 7 days on the increased copper dose?

for that reason, do you see a problem with going back on say 2x 2mg copper daily, but still stay off all the other vitamins? as now my bloods have been taken.
or do you feel i should stay off All vits including copper for a while?

i know, i should have been allowed the urine ceruloplasmin test , i will ask him again once i get the results for the liver/ferritin/fbc tests

re: low magnesium, i had a serum magnesium test in September which showed :
Serum magnesium level = 0.93 / mmol/L / 0.7 - 1.00
Serum Vitamin D = 122 / nmol/L / 50 - 200

So i guess i dont have low magnesium, so cant be the cause (remember i was off vitamins for 5 days leading to having bloods drawn too) - i normally take 1x 200mg mag glycinate daily.
- also my recent B12 and folate levels were High.

re nystagmus, i eat lots of foods rich in b vitamins, and have shown good magnesium levels, so the treatments dont seem to help (if i in fact do have nystagmus, will find out at hospital)
but in the Wahls trials (http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT013813540
the patients take 100mg of B1, B2 and B3 Daily,
but i take a 50mg B50 solgar complex, so dont see the need to take a further 50mg of B1,B2.B3 when i consume alot of B Vitamins in my diet.

- i still feel the lesion on my coccyx is a big factor as legs feel weaker when i sit and stronger when i sit to the side so alleviating pressure. (recent pic of coccyx if youre brave enough :p http://tinypic.com/r/j0uura/6)

while the comments on the wahls study sound promising, there is only one person of the 20 that reports marked mobility improvements after a year, hmm, thats just 5% of the patients, surely there should be more, if the diet "works"..


is there any further info on the protocol used with NMES?
I use NMES 3-4 times a week, but just stimulate my lower body - quads/hamstrings/hips/lower back/calves/shins - following the user guide which came with the device,
so not sure if Dr Wahls' patient follow something different?


re hyperaldosteronism
i dont have the common symptom of high blood pressure, here are my blood pressures from
24/2/11 @ 11;15 / 16/10/12 @ 17;25 (6 months into wahls diet)
Systolic blood pressure 104 / 99

Diastolic blood pressure 66 / 58

Pulse 90 / 65


On myeloneuropathy:
http://www.medlink.com/medlinkcontent.asp
The commonly identified causes of acquired copper deficiency include a prior history of gastric surgery, excessive zinc ingestion, and malabsorption

My latest zinc test showed me in range (14.4 umol/L , range = 11-20), so its not excessive zinc..
ive never had gastric surgery, so just malabsorption is a possibilty,
but the fact i have fine vit D, Magnesium, Calcium levels indicates to me i dont have malabsorption.
unless i'm missing something here?
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:41 am

hi there, sure try a little copper and see how you go. i just don't want you to have trouble if you have a copper handling issue.

your mag looks good. some sources say it should be at least 0.90, some say at least 0.95. d3 level looks good too.

so. as for thiamin, i've never seen so many legumes on a whfoods nutrient page in my life http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=100

when i was on the klenner protocol i took 300mg b1 before each meal and before bed, for a total of 1200mg daily. i don't know if it was that that helped, or some other factor. but the klenner protocol did me a LOT of good a few yrs back. my easy, uninformed modified version, that is.

i hear you re the wahls study for sure. re coccyx lesion, i'll check it out.. so many, many variables to consider :S !!!
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby dc10 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:42 am

thanks JL, i know the variables make it so much harder to work out,
im sooo tempted to stop the wahls/paleo diet and return to my tasty diary/gluten diet but im scared that i will miss out in repairing the myelin damage, and my walking could improve - this is the only treatment that claims to have done this!

main variables are the low red cell count/lymphocytes = possibly anemic
and low red cells would explain my weakened legs/bladder as less oxygen would go to cells

the coccyx lesion being another reason, but its not infected, so doubt its affevcting my legs/bladder

and then theres my weight loss on the diet (im 5'11" weighed 133 lbs before starting wahls diet, now 114lbs), despite the fact i eat soo much food, but it is low carb/calories
maybe my body has gone into survival mode from less calories consumed/weight loss and as a result have weakened legs/bladder,
Maybe the small amount of carbs i eat is resulting in me not functioning properly which = weaker levs /bladder?
sound realistic? it has been 8 months now on the wahls diet

- do you think by consuming too few calories (for me personally), could then make an MS patients symptoms worse?
is it logical?
- but i am rarely hungry till meal times (every 3-4 hours) due to the huge quantities of vegetables i eat.

my main concern is going back to my tasty gluten/dairy/sugar diet, and then my legs and bladder remaining weak/worsened,
then there goes 8 months of strict dieting, for nothing!!
- but saying all this i didnt eat unhealthy. just ocassional treats and healthy food 90% of the time.

ah i see, so maybe it will be worth supplementing with B1, B2, B3, as the wahls article indicates her patients use,
but then i am taking a daily b50
what are your thoughts on upping myb1, b2, b3 by an additional 100mg ontop of the daily b50, so would be taking150mg of each b1, b2, b3, as well as the healthy nutrient dense diet?

re the lesion, i got a copy of the letter the general surgeon sent to my GP when i was referred to him i in October to assess the lesion:


The patient has a very prominent coccyx due to the fact he's extremely thin. He spends a lot of time sitting down and there is a small red patch in the natal cleft which looks chronic rather than acute.
There are no sinuses here. I don't think this is pilonidal disease, I think this has been caused by pressure on the area from prolong period of sitting on it.


hmm the dietitian i saw last week said the mark is there due to there being very little bodyfat,
and that if i increase my weight and subsequent bodyfat, that the mark/lesion would heal
not sure how accurate this assumption is?

** chicken patties seasoned, raw weight = 120 grams for two - cooked grilled weight = 95 grams.
p.s. all the organic meat i eat is purchased as just mince/fillets from the supermarket, no brands or mixtures or added anything, i season them myself with herbs,
here's the chicken nutrition facts:

Per 100g
Energy 555kJ
131kcals
Protein 30.7g
Carbohydrate 0.0g
Total Sugars 0.0g
Fat 0.9g
Saturates 0.3g
Fibre 0.0g
Salt 0.18g
Sodium 0.07g
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dc10
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Re: Why is the Wahls diet making me much worse, is it possib

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:57 am

ok if bulking up is the way forward then i think you need more gluten free complex carbs. like steel cut oats, brown rice and such. i wouldn't go crazy on gluten and dairy though.

personally, as a general rule i only have dairy in tea or coffee, and a very small amount of old cheddar cheese. bread intake is negligible. i keep it in the freezer and even if i were to eat some it would be low gluten since it's made with sprouted flour.

so far today i ate my standard day off breakfast - half a small onion, a mushroom, a little red pepper and spinach sauteed up a couple of eggs over top and a small slice of cheese cut up in cubes to melt on top. side dish 'bubble and squeak' ie leftover potatoes and cabbage fried up. also two slices of heritage tamworth pork back bacon.
at lunch i will have italian sausage soup (onion pepper tomato potato kidney beans bay leaf thyme and hot italian sausage) - planning to put more leftover cabbage and potato in that too.
it's stir fry night tonight so brown rice, loads of veggies, and some tidbits of leftover chicken.
for fluids so far today i had one tea and one coffee. just about to go get a big glass of water.

no trouble keeping the weight on over here :S lol
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