A new concept and treatment options for MS

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby positive » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:37 am

What about exercises effect on fat cells vs muscle cells and cellular transport and its effect on the bbb and endorphins!
positive
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:48 pm

Advertisement

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby lyndacarol » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:03 pm

positive – Muscle cells take in glucose, using it as the energy source, without insulin during exercise. If glucose is removed thusly from the bloodstream during exercise, insulin production will not need to be stimulated in an effort to accomplish the glucose removal.

Fat cells must be converted back to glucose; and then they can be handled by exercise as described above.

I am not sure what you are focusing on with "cellular transport and its effect on the BBB and endorphins." Insulin can cross the blood-brain barrier; I do not know of an interaction between insulin and endorphins.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
 
Posts: 2271
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:00 pm

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby positive » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:49 pm

Yes but wasn't it said that the brain cells were starving for glucose?
And if so , does metformin affect all cells the same (brain cell, fat cells, muscle cells...) as far as insulin resistance goes?
Wouldn't there be more cognitive symptoms of this starvation?
Just trying to sort this all out in head! :)
positive
Getting to Know You...
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:48 pm

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby Leonard » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:57 am

I must try to oversee things. If I go down too much into the nitty gritty, I get swamped very quickly and lose sight. So please excuse me for now for not responding to some of your questions. I come back to you..

For the progressive phase, I think that it is (very) long chain fatty acids (LCFA, are related to satured fats) that enter the bloodstream due to a leaky gut that inhibit mitochondria. Such concept would establish the gut relationship of MS starting from mid-age. In our case, these fats can enter the cells in our brain because many year of ccsvi will have damaged the tissue of the BBB. Besides these LCFA will enter into other cells too leading to a broader neuropathy and other effects. The link of MS to the Swank low fat diet unequivocally confirms the fat relationship. An insufficient level of Carnitine produced by the liver (this may be exhaustion) weakens the break down these LCFA which will then aggravate the problem and confirms the liver relationship.

On the Internet, you find a wealth of information and papers, many from recent date, by googling on transport very long chain fatty acids (LCFA) into mitochondria, commensal bacteria, malabsorption of fats, leaky gut syndrome, gut microbiota and immune diseases, colonic fermentation and metabolic diseases.
User avatar
Leonard
Family Elder
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:00 pm
Location: Brussels, Capital of Europe

The carnitine transport system

Postby Leonard » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:37 am

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... 94c4K_9Gow

As a semi-literate, it is difficult for me to assess the real value of this paper. But I would like to take two points out:
- a deficiency in mitochondrial fatty acid oxidation due to ischemic condition (reduction of blood supply). The transport system can and does under certain conditions operate in the reverse direction transporting fatty acids out of the matrix. We know many PwMS have a reduced Cerebral Blood Flow CBF as an integral part of the disease that is already present at the time of diagnosis where this reverse mechanism may induce further mitochondrial energy failure. Possibly the detection of long-chain acylcarnitines in the blood could point to the metabolic defect..
- the role of phosphorylation/dephosphorylation for control of CPT-I activity and the carnitine transport system (the Carnitine sensitive palmitoyltransferase of long chain fatty acids). In my earlier postings of 19 Feb 2013 and 7 Mar 2013, the phosphate homeostasis already showed up and a link was made to the Wahls diet. Possibly the phosphate homeostasis is a critical issue for us…
Last edited by Leonard on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Leonard
Family Elder
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:00 pm
Location: Brussels, Capital of Europe

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby andreagwolford » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:15 am

Really informative. Good one!
andreagwolford
 

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby CaveMan » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:02 am

Leonard your tenacity is comendable, like a dog with a bone.

We used and still use Carnitine in treating fatigue symptoms in my partners thyroid condition and in unofficial trials we have done in concert with our naturopath who now regularly prescribes it to her patients, primarily as a metabolic aid to remove the static of multiple symptoms, we have found that it helps many individuals but not all, it seems that if one does have a carnitine deficiency then supplementatioon helps within days, if not then there is no effect. If anyone is interested in using it then Acetyl L Carnitine is the most appropriate variant, Acetyl D Carnitine is the reverse molecule and is inneffective, do some research of your own before trying anything.

The other point I would like to suggest is you do a quick google search of "Leptin Multiple Sclerosis".
Leptin is a relatively new hormone, only discovered in 1994, and is rapidly being termed the master of endochrine hormones, it seems that Leptin dysfunction precedes many autoimmune disease manifestations, it is secreted by fat cells and rateher than just being excess weight we carry it is only just now being understood that adipose (fat) tissue is a major endochrine organ that is involved in regulating everything from satiety and metabolism through regulating thyroid function through to the immune system. Although it may be termed the "new kid on the block", leptin is being recognised as a major player in nearly all systems of the body.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
CaveMan
Family Elder
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:11 pm

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby Leonard » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:44 am

Thanks.

If I make my best assessment, Leptin is positioned somewhere towards the end of the chain, more caused than causal, just like cytokines. I think MS is fundamentally a nutritional problem (hypothesised on this thread right from the outset) possibly convolved with low cerebral blood flow, that then causes a plethora of reactions. Our regulatory system is highly advanced, I am sure it cannot be grasped by just a few molecules or a simple linear system, it is a micro-cosmos of biological reactions that is the product of over 1 Billion years of evolution and natural selection.

My best assessment for now is that something goes wrong in the gut, the liver (is part of the same nutritional black box) cannot cope or restore, nutritional problems spread through the body, other systems get affected (e.g. parasympathetic nervous system with consequence on other organs possibly with other further regulatory functions or loops e.g with the gut?), the immune system is alarmed... Where in the RR phase the cytokines served a useful purpose calling in T cells that removed the infectious agent and restored to normal conditions, the intervention of the immune system in the second progressive phase is more questionable.

I think a bad gut condition (studies have been done on the gut relation of MS and may be found on this thread, gut flora transplantation may reverse MS) causes substances e.g. long chain fatty acids, MG min cholesterol, crystalline cholesterol to get into the bloodstream. If the liver can cope or for as long as it can (e.g. with Carnitine production or with a new liver), you will be ok. But when the liver cannot cope anymore, these substances will not be sufficiently broken down and problems will start. With a bad blood flow in your joints, perhaps you get rheumatic disease. Or you may get diabetes type II. With a bad blood flow and weak endothelial conditions in your cerebro spinal due to many years of ccsvi (latter would simulate conditions of low blood flow...), you get progressive MS. Bad feeding conditions will lead to immune system reaction, desintegrating molecules, myeline etc...

I think, but that is all to be proven, that the bad substances jam the mitochondria and lead to an energy cycle failure. But in addition the (simulated) low blood flow condition may lead to mitochondrial matrices that start to reverse operation (which could –originally, by nature- well have developed as a cell protective mechanism...). The phosphor homeostasis seems a critical element in the mitochondrial membrames for fatty acid transport...

I know, this is all wide speculation, this whole thread is nothing else than one big brainstorm. But at least it tries to combine what-is into a bigger picture, it tries to map out the course of the river. Future will tell whether there was value in it. For the moment, I am fascinated by what I see when entering the endocrinological space...
Last edited by Leonard on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Leonard
Family Elder
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:00 pm
Location: Brussels, Capital of Europe

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby CaveMan » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:15 pm

Not withstanding other contributing factors like epigenetics, vitamin D, stress etc., I agree that nutrition is likely at the core of most chronic disease conditions.

Through my readings I am finding that there are two key nutritional factors that seem to contribute to systemic inflamation:

1/Excessive carbohydrate, particularly High GI, consumption and unfounded fears of fat consumption, the end result being an overwhelming dependance on glucose metabolism and a progressive burnout of glucose control systems and a resultant elevated blood glucose levels, it has been shown that even "Normal range" high end glucose levels have a strong corrolation to heart disease and some autoimmune conditions.
Note high insulin levels and diabetes are the end result of decades of struggle endured by the body trying to mitigate the inflamation caused by mildly high blood glucose levels.

2/Excessive intake of Omega 6 polyunsaturated oils, there are a number of issues here, firstly these oils are highly unstable and prone to rapid oxidation as soon as they are removed from within their naturally packaged form, seeds, once extracted they are then bleached, deodorised and bottled, but for the most part are already rancid before you even open the bottle, so that is already a problem consuming oxidised oils is going to be an inflamation issue straight away. Secondly, they have been promoted as healthy and their increased consumption has been pushed by manufacturers on the foundation of selective science, along with the fact that Omega 3 levels have fallen to virtually zero due to changes in agriculture, i.e. factory farming, resulting in consumption ratios in excess of 20:1, where the ideal 06:O3 ratio is less than 4:1 and preferably as close to 1:1 as you can get, there have been some studies that indicate the actual ratio is more important than the absolute volume. This is then further aggravated by unfounded fears of saturated fat consumption, so when it comes to our body's doing building and repair work, if it can't get adequate supplies of the right material, then it uses what it has available, so in cell membranes which are primarily comprised of saturated fats and small amounts of O6's & O3's, the end result is an excessive proportion of O6's are represented and this is important because the O6's & O3's seem to play a significant role in cell signaling and transport of materials into and out of cells. So if we think of it like a building, then saturated fats form the walls and the Omega's form the doors & windows, too many doors and windows and it becomes difficult to maintain adequate security in the building, likewise with our cells, they effectively become leaky, so the body ramps up other measures like the immune system and cholesterol to help plug the gaps.

The Liver is definately a key part of the process as well and in the high carb consumption there is high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), fructose in moderate quantities in a balanced diet is fine, but the excessive consumption through HFCS and ordinary sucrose results in an overload in the liver which must process most of the fructose to triglycerides mostly because of excessive blood glucose already, transport out is impaired (can't remember mecanism at moment) and this results in a logjam in the liver impairing it's functions. The other thing about fructose is it has the ability to block leptin receptors in the brain causing the satiety response to fail, hence we just keep eating it and putting on weight, this is believed to be a hibernation type response allowing us to gorge on in season fruit as it is only available for a short period and then store this away, just doesn't work so well when there is a year round supply of fructose.

When you throw other nutritional antigens like Gluten type compounds, Casein, Soy into a damaged gut, then these become the key activation triggers for a variety of antibody type responses, often in conjunction with bacterial incursions as well.

Anyway that's some of the things I have looked at, not saying it is all right, but think it is part of the problem.

And yes, one can easily get lost in the endochrine system.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
CaveMan
Family Elder
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:11 pm

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby SLOV8213 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:41 pm

I have been daubed with the MS label along with one of my elder sisters. My eldest sister was daubed with a diabetes diagnosis. The doctor said she has diabetes because it is hereditary. No one else in our immediate or extended family has diabetes? Are these two condition's one in the same?
SLOV8213
Family Member
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby Leonard » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:13 am

@Caveman: thank you for these very valuable reflections, I have intuitively felt the same. In the last decade before my diagnosis, I had a very high sugar/cola consumption. I was raised on a farm with the real fat, 15-20 years ago (in a different family setting and environment) we switched over to olive oil (high Omega 6)...

this information is thought provoking: general-discussion-f1/topic22095.html

a list on fats found in the book on Adrenal Fatigue by James L Wilson puts olive oil at the bottom of the list...

@SLOV8213: diabetes and MS have a common underlying cause. go some pages back on this thread and read through a few times.
Last edited by Leonard on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Leonard
Family Elder
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:00 pm
Location: Brussels, Capital of Europe

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby NHE » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:37 am

Leonard wrote:@Caveman: thank you for these very valuable reflections, I have intuitively felt the same. In the last decade before my diagnosis, I had a very high sugar/cola consumption. I was raised on a farm with the real fat, 15-20 years ago (in a different family setting and environment) we switched over to olive oil (high Omega 6)...


Olive oil is rich in oleic acid which is a monounsaturated omega-9. It makes up 55-83% of the fat in olive oil.

http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/chem ... cteristics
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 3323
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Putting a broader perspective on things

Postby Leonard » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:22 am

these lectures put a broader perspective on things.
they provide good food for thought...


The deeper roots of health
Connecting Leptin to health
Keep insulin and Leptin down
Fibre = short and medium chain fatty acids
Ketones are a healthier fuel..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvTE--5w808

The Holy Grail of primal health
On carb vs fat
The ketogenic adapted way of eating
Leptin regulates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qamxC3fV870

And Terry Wahls of course:
Minding your mitochondria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg216KCuXSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc

I think all the above presentations go down the same path...

Diabetes patients must follow a diet that gets them somewhere in between, which means:
- low sugar/carb,
- not too much fat either = no long chain fatty acids (Swank low fat diet = allow the liver to recover e.g. with Carnitine production)
- fibres are ok = short to medium chain fatty acids = eat lots of vegetables, and possibly restore phosphor homeostasis that is so important for mitochondrial membranes (the Wahls diet..)
one could imagine here a new food pyramid: the bottom left = high carb = deep red; the bottom right = high saturated fat = LCFA = deep red; towards the middle, the colour becomes green and then deeper green towards the top = high fibre / natural phosphor

I am sure this reasoning is true for MS patients too...
although they did not have knowledge of the new insights and their thoughts must have been poisoned by the autoimmunity thinking, these researchers were on the right track...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 074643.htm
Researchers Determine That MS And Diabetes Are Closely Linked Diseases
Last edited by Leonard on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:19 am, edited 8 times in total.
User avatar
Leonard
Family Elder
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:00 pm
Location: Brussels, Capital of Europe

Re: A new concept for MS [I think I found it: This Is MS]

Postby lyndacarol » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:54 am

EXCELLENT videos, Leonard!
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
User avatar
lyndacarol
Family Elder
 
Posts: 2271
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:00 pm

when the rivers flow together

Postby Leonard » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:53 am

when the rivers flow together...

although this whole thread is one big speculation, that does not mean to say that it is all wrong what is said..
to the contrary, I believe it brings many things together, it builds a highly consistent and therefore plausible picture for what is MS.

in its second progressive phase, I am sure MS is caused by a metabolic disorder/hormonal disregulation.
as we saw in my earlier (amended) posting from here above, diet would play a crucial part in recovery.
the Swank and Wahls diets were related to the bigger picture.

now guess what?
this is where the MS specific diets come together with the green food approach.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Live-Food-Fac ... ood+factor
http://www.groenedag.org/R1/EN/Book/fmBook1.html
the 'groenedag' (greenday - see the above link) even gives a series of lectures here in Belgium how you can overcome diabetes and rheumatic disease by diet.
as we have seen MS is not very far...

many of these green diets have probably been seen by the traditional medicin as alternative 'soft' science approaches, and perhaps in my own mind I was not very different...
but now that this new even bigger and highly consistent picture is emerging where the rivers are seen to flow together, I think it is high time for a reappreciation of things with a view to bring the human being closer to nature again...
Last edited by Leonard on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Leonard
Family Elder
 
Posts: 650
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:00 pm
Location: Brussels, Capital of Europe

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Contact us | Terms of Service