Infectious cause

If it's on your mind and it has to do with multiple sclerosis in any way, post it here.

Postby Anecdote » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:08 pm

Thank you, Arron, we probably are, but I'm not that nice. And I don't believe in Father Christmas either!

Sarah :cry:
An Itinerary in Light and Shadow Completed Dr Charles Stratton / Dr David Wheldon abx regime for aggressive secondary progressive MS in June 2007, after four years. Still improving with no relapses since starting. Can't run but can paint all day.
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Postby REDHAIRANDTEMPER » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:22 pm

hey there everyone,
speaking of where everyone lived i lived most of my life in spokane washington...which in the early 80s there were a couple of articles about how spokane had a high rate of ms..the doctors where doing studys to find out why that was....grandmother is trying to find them to send to me..so it should be interesting cause at the time i was a teenager so its not like you paid attention to that kinda of stuff...now i wish i had...

chris
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Postby LisaBee » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:53 pm

As a personal history account, my "relapse" that triggered my diagnosis followed two months after the disovery of a bad periodontal abcess requiring antibiotics (and a root canal), gut problems from the antibiotics and weight loss (besides, I couldn't chew) and loads of personal stress. Based on the MRI (and personal reflection) I've probably had MS for at least 20 years but never had enough neuro symptoms to get a neuro referral. In my childhood and teens, I had so many various GI and respiratory illnesses that I can't pinpoint anything in particular. I don't personally know anyone with MS, and have no family history of it, although there are some other "autoimmune" diseases in my family.

The thing that bothers me about MS is at least the RRMS behaves a lot like some of the diseases of inborn errors of metabolism that appear to be aggravated by conditions that cause metabolic stress, and one of those stressors is an infection; another stressor is prolonged fasting and poor nutrition. I had both going on immediately prior to my diagnosis.

For a metabolic disease example, partial biotinidase deficiency can show up in child that appeared healthy but got subjected to the stress of an infection. Here's a link to a summary of biotinidase deficiency:

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic239.htm
if interested, go to the section under "Lab Workup", although there is discussion throughout the document. The symptoms are grim, but the upside is it is treatable with biotin.

The same pattern of stress aggravation is true for Hartnup disease, which involves tryptophan absorption. People who get adequate protein are rarely symptomatic, but an illness can trigger all sorts of problems.

For any real gluttons for punishment out there, a grueling discussion of all sorts of progressive versus intermittent or episodic types of ataxia is here:

http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic556.htm

I put these out there, not to suggest that MS is really one of these other diseases (although for some people that could be possible) but to indicate there is a pattern of exacerbation of the neurological symptoms associated with these diseases, and they have an identified genetic error of metabolism. It might appear that infection could "cause" the disease in these people, but an infection, through causing metabolic stress, only unmasked a problem that was already there. I think it is a possibility that MS might be the same, only we probably have more than one enzyme that is not optimal, or the inheritance patterns would be clearer, and it may take a combination. And the enzymes can't be too dysfunctional, or we wouldn't have made it to adulthood.

I think it is notable that the recommended workup for these other diseases is an investigation into metabolic markers to help make the diagnosis, but it seems like since I got an MS diagnosis there is nothing else to look at and all symptoms I have are just chalked up to MS. If, while we are in a relapse, we got the blood and urinalysis recommended for some of these other conditions, what might show up? What patterns might be seen among MS patients?

Just some ideas on a different way of looking at infections,

Lisa
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Postby mrhodes40 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:42 am

Ian you said ( I always thought that bacteria got in through cuts..)
Gosh, not at all. You have a lot of natural bacteria living in your body all the time. We could culture strep right now most likely from your nose. Your intestinal tract is full of bacteria of course. Some of them symbiotically help out. You get some of your b-12 from gut bacteria.

Chlamydia pneumoniae is a cause of community acquired pneumonia and is tracked by the local health authorities as are many other kinds of pneumonias, all bacterial all caught by droplets ( a sneeze and airborne bacteria). Meningitis is a bacteria. Gosh, bacteria are very catchable often in droplets. TB is a mycoplasma, a bacteria that like CPn has several forms and can be intracellular as well as extra cellular. I'm sure we all know how TB patients were quarantined so they'd not infect others. Also as an aside just an interesting little tidbit I learned from a very old nurse in a nursing home telling me about the old days, they knew back then that the act of putting people in the sun and drying the sheets and hankies etc in the sun killed the bacteria on the clean linen reducing the spread. Just a little connection to the lower latitude angle that might have interesting meaning (less living droplets, less pneumonia spread in sunny areas). You know the epidemiological evidence that people at lower latitudes have higher incidence can be due to many different things. Epidemiological evidence is extremely weak and the lowest form of "research" because the bias of the researcher is so influences the conclusions. I am aware of lower than usual 25-d levels, but the picture is incomplete there. it's interesting how the model you subscribe to alters the way you look at data.
As a nurse spread of infectious droplets is our concern. Just thought it'd be good to share.
Marie
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