Jimmylegs...my lab results

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Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:50 am

What a mess...

b12 1668 high (normal 211-946) After 3.5 months of 20,000/day supplementation
Vitamin D 27.5 low (normal 30-100) After 3.5 months of 4000-8000/day supplementation
Magnesium 2.1 normal (normal 1.6-2.6) After 3.5 months of 360/day supplementation
Zinc 96 normal (normal 56-134) After 4 months of 50mg/day supplementation
Cortisol was really weird. There is a normal range for am and pm. AM normal is 6.2-19.4 PM normal is 2.3-11.9
Free Cortisol 5.8 at 3.33pm

So...I'm thinking this is how CAP and mino work. They suppress cortisol and aldosterone...maybe allowing the hippocampus to heal if the right dose is taken? I dunno.
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/150/3/1303.full
Doxycycline treatment decreased both basal (58%, P < 0.01) and Ang II-stimulated (46%, P < 0.01) cortisol levels

I'm not sure if that even works to explain the normal cortisol level because I stopped taking doxy (and all supplements) 5 days before this test. Also, it wasn't exactly the best test to get an accurate measure of what my cortisol levels are doing. Maybe I'll ask for a better test in April.

At any rate, those results are very messed up by CAP and the recommended supplements in the Wheldon protocol. And if my cortisol and zinc were in normal ranges as a result...what the heck is blocking my D absorption?! Yes, I took calcium too.
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:02 am

Holy Moly!!
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2399002036
Decrease in cortisol reverses human hippocampal atrophy following treatment of Cushing’s disease
Monica N Starkmana, , Bruno Giordanib, Stephen S Gebarskic, Stanley Berentb, M.Anthony Schorke, David E Schteingartd
a Department of Psychiatry (MNS), University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
b Neuropsychology Division, Department of Psychiatry (BG, SB), University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
c Department of Department of Radiology (SSG), University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
d Department of and Department of Internal Medicine (DES), University of Michigan Medical School, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
e Department of Biostatistics, School of Public Health, University of Michigan (MAS), Ann Arbor., USA
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0006-3223(99)00203-6, How to Cite or Link Using DOI
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Abstract
Background: Decreased hippocampal volume is observed in patients with Cushing’s syndrome and other conditions associated with elevated cortisol levels, stress, or both. Reversibility of hippocampal neuronal atrophy resulting from stress occurs in animals. Our study investigated the potential for reversibility of human hippocampal atrophy.

Methods: The study included 22 patients with Cushing’s disease. Magnetic resonance brain imaging was performed prior to transsphenoidal microadenomectomy and again after treatment.

Results: Following treatment, hippocampal formation volume (HFV) increased by up to 10%. The mean percent change (3.2 ± 2.5) was significantly greater (p < .04) than that of the comparison structure, caudate head volume (1.5 ± 3.4). Increase in HFV was significantly associated with magnitude of decrease in urinary free cortisol (r = −.61, p < .01). This relationship strengthened after adjustments for age, duration of disease, and months elapsed since surgery (r = −.70, p < .001). There was no significant correlation between caudate head volume change and magnitude of cortisol decrease.

Conclusions: Changes in human HFV associated with sustained hypercortisolemia are reversible, at least in part, once cortisol levels decrease. While many brain regions are likely affected by hypercortisolemia, the human hippocampus exhibits increased sensitivity to cortisol, affecting both volume loss and recovery.

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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:50 am

yay, i love levels!!!

woww those are interesting..

remember, being normal is useless! all that printout means is that your cortisol matches the levels seen in the other patients tested there. more likely than not, no healthy control data is included in that range. if you need further clarification re 'normal', you can read the relevant intro/summary info in my first regimen post.

eep, why on earth have you been taking so much b12? you only need your level to be up above 500... taking zinc helps absorption so you should never ever need to supplement so much. a b50 complex with methylcobalamin for the b12 fraction should be more than enough. hope you're not high dosing anything else in the b complex?

that low vit d3 is crazy. must have been SUPER low to start. 4000 IU per day is a maintenance dose only, so the days you took more will have been inching you slightly higher, incrementally. you could probably use a short term therapeutic megadose and then you can go back to 4000 IU per day thereafter.

for a target, you want to be up at more like 45 (i am assuming your units are ng/mL)

if you can, go for 50,000IU of vit d3 per day for 10 days, and then retest. should do the trick to get your levels up in the 40s.

your magnesium level is too low. i know it sounds like splitting hairs, but you are in the lower half of the research normal range (as opposed to the lab's 'normal' range), and you need to be well into the top half. go for at least 2.2-2.3. what form of mag are you using again?

zinc. that is still suboptimal. basically the middle of the 'normal' range, but with zinc you need to be right at the top end of the normal range. go for 120.

remind me re your diet, including fluids? and total daily supplement regimen? we can look for gaps or anti-nutrients. if you are not in a position to make changes, then you may want to consider increasing supplementation to compensate.

i have to go check on some food, will read and follow up re cortisol in a bit.
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:19 am

Yeah, that b12 is a bit freaky and not in a good way. lol I was just being a good little CAP'er and following the recommendations. Hopefully I won't develop a nasty thrombosis and drop dead from that. Ugh. Maybe that's the reason CAP caused some new weird surface numbness that comes and goes. Who knows? I'm going to let my mostly vegan diet take that down to normal lickety split.

I had my vitamin D tested in August after 5 months of intense sunbathing w/o sunscreen and it was only 29.5. I'm thinking something is interfering with absorption there...or something is using it up really quickly. Both of my MS fits have been in Jan-Mar so I think the D has something to do with them. I'm tempted to do some polar bear sunbathing today.

As for the rest, are you trying to get me to beastardize the results of my little experiment? No supplements for me for at least 6 months! I'll have new lab numbers for you and then I'll submit to jimmylegation. :P
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:08 am

oh right sorry. carry on :S lol

question re b12. any problem with sleep wake cycles on that high a dose??
can you link me up to the specific CAP rec for b12 dosage and timing?

i don't suppose you had a baseline zinc level done.. as a 'mostly' vegan, you'll have trouble with that one. esp if you're also a 'wheat-eater' :) so 50mg/d may not be enough. low zinc will impair d3 status. that's a personal observation, ie case study with n=1. still waiting for the relevant larger study.

what's the lat long where you do your sunbathing? there's a good online calculator posted in my regimen thread somewhere probably in the first few pages.

remind me what your daily intakes of omegas are like?

ever heard this one: 'i'm not a vegan b/c i love animals, i'm a vegan b/c i HATE VEGETABLES"
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:50 am

Hm. I was waking up a lot at night and I did require a nap or two during the day. I can't say if that was because of the antibiotics or the b12 though. I am sleeping soundly through the night now (yay clonidine!) though so I suppose that wasn't b12 related.

No baseline zinc. Sorry. Bringing my zinc up apparently didn't help my D3s. N=2. Fail. (channeling my punk offspring) lol Just kidding. I didn't reach the peak of my zinc crescendo so I don't count.

I fear if I post my lat/long someone will figure out who my neurologist is and send him (or HER) nasty emails. lol I would need about two and a half hours in the sun today to get 25 mg of D. Brrrrr. Need to shop for a vitamin D lamp. (Btw, my two exacerbations occurred when I lived in the deep south...pretty much year round shorts and tees)

I was taking 1000mg/day flaxseed oil whilst on CAP, other than that, I probably get some from earth balance and other spreads, nuts, and seeds. I might get some by osmosis when I hand my son his brain fat/dha.

LOL @ I'm vegan because I hate vegetables. Mostly, I'm almost vegan just to annoy people. :P
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:08 pm

what time of day were you taking your daily doses of b12? spread out throughout, or?? if you are not currently megadosing b12 that will probably affect sleep wake cycles regardless of background levels.

without baseline data before d3, then before zinc, then zinc and d3 together, it is impossible to say whether zinc has affected absorption of d3 or not. once you're back on a regimen and get the levels up there we'll see.

as for lat long, you can go find the link (you may already have done so) and figure out what times of the year solar energy is sufficient at your location to facilitate d3 synthesis in the skin. now as for your exacerbations in the deep south. there is a lag between max exposure to solar energy and max serum level. so you'd have to look at the timing and do some guesswork, if you don't have serum level info available from those time periods.

once you're done your experiment, increasing daily zinc and magnesium, plus short term d3 megadose, should kick things into the right arena. keep it up with the flax too :)
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:26 pm

I forgot the link to the Wheldon Protocol supplement recommendations. I think they've changed them a bit since I started. It used to be in a different format and I don't recall the recommendation that you only megadose b12 during first three months. I could be wrong though.
http://www.CPn Help.org/recommended_supplements
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:06 pm

link's not working but yeah when i went hunting earlier i couldn't find anything that matched either.. nothing anywhere near the levels you posted. i've heard 2,000 mcg per day before. used to do that myself. via sublingual methylcobalamin tabs or strips. your post was the first time i ever heard of 20,000 mcg per day!
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:59 pm

The current recommendation is 4000mg several times per day. A couple is two. A few is three. Several is 4-5. Really...that's in the dictionary...the one that I wrote. I had 5000mg b12 and took it 4x/day. And 2x/day someone in this house would ask me why my teeth were red so I could respond "becauth I'n taking b-twelth." :roll:

I've looked all over for my Wheldon protocol printout (it used to be in essay format) but I think I stored it in a really dumb place whilst in my antibiotic-induced stupor. Can't find it for the life of me!
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:48 pm

hmm i wonder what the rationale for that high dosage would be!
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:07 am

New labs...post clonidine with very little supplementation of anything (a few 5000d3, low mag and zinc doses, and a week or so of a multi...washed out for test).

Vitamin B12 953 211-946 pg/mL (was 1668)
Folate (Folic Acid), Serum 15.0 >3.0 ng/mL (was 18.2)
Magnesium, Serum 1.9 1.6-2.6 mg/dL (was 2.1)
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 27.0 30.0-100.0 ng/mL (was 27.5)
Cortisone, Serum, Lcms 1.94 Lab did the WRONG TEST! Grrr. Useless.
Zinc, Plasma Or Serum 106 56-134 ug/dL (was 96)

So, I guess what I can take from this is my levels pretty much held their own with very little supplementation. The January tests were after 4 months of very high supplementation.
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:58 am

ok, looks like you have lots of work to do to reach optimal.

still need to get that zinc up to 120 if poss.

mag still should be at least 2.2-2.3 and higher.. you're headed in the wrong direction (poss d.t. the 5000 d3 doses??). fyi in SI units the differences between levels like 2.1 and 2.2 are much more marked. eg the normal range in SI is 0.70-1.10 (think 70 to 110) but to get into the optimal range you need to be at least 0.90 or preferably 0.95 - 1.10 mmol/L. (think minimum 95 out of 110)

you want your d3 up to say 40 or 50. getting the zinc and mag boosted should help.

b12 is definitely still quite all right without supplementation! you could probably come down as far as the 500s without ill effects.

off to physio I go! don't want to be late. again :S
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby Anonymoose » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:15 pm

Heya Jimmy,
Yep. They definitely aren't optimal. I thought you'd at least be intrigued by the rise in zinc with almost no supplementation (I took about 3 35mg doses before I started my multi with 3.8mg). ;) I'm worried about zinc getting too high so I'm just going to stick with the low dose in multi until my next blood test. My multi has no magnesium in it so I will probably try the mag l-threonate again (until I start (hopefully) amiloride which can cause increased mag and k levels). My diet is fairly rich in mag foods so I don't really understand why my levels are dropping...maybe because I was focusing so much on potassium while on clonidine?? I've got a lot of room on the d so I'll start the 5000d3/week and get in out in the sun.
Thanks for the tips...stay tuned for next round of tests...maybe June??
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Re: Jimmylegs...my lab results

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:30 pm

heya :) for the zinc, it kind of depends if your dietary stuff changed to include fewer foods/beverage that inhibit absorption.. hard to say without a diet diary.
you've got a fair way still to go with the zinc, will be interesting to see what the levels are in june.

careful with drugs that elevate nutrient levels. you have to wonder, when the levels aren't increased from higher dietary inputs, just where the 'new' mag and k is coming from exactly. tissue stores you'd rather hang onto maybe?

re mag dropping, again, possibly the d3 doses. so be careful when you start adding it in again.. how much elemental magnesium in your daily dose of mag l-threonate?
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info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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