This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

[jimmylegs]

yep. 'mutually exclusive' aka not occurring at the same time. the 'almost' bit means that as with many rules, surprise there are exceptions
one day soon i'll have journal access again and i'll see if I can dig up some raw data. would like to see exactly how many there were with ms, how many with gout, and how many with both.

[zjac020]

The topic of this thread is related to the reason (uric acid) why MS and gout are nearly mutually exclusive, and also why the exception to the rule is posting in this thread. The research on inosine for abatement of MS symptoms indicates that kidney stones and gout are potential risks of raising serum uric acid levels, which is what inosine does.

The protocol for people taking isosine in phase II trials includes at least 8 glasses of water a day. That has me taking a lot of trips to the bathroom. ) :

Regarding the person who saw no effect from inosine, have you had your serum zinc levels measured? I am NOT a fan of blindly supplementing with zinc - it can exacerbate MS. However if you are zinc deficient the body won't be able to convert the inosine to uric acid (so it will be ineffective).

Sorry to have to go back to an old post, but the comment that Zinc can worsen MS drew me back slightly. can anyone elaborate on this?

[jimmylegs]

i believe that would relate to zinc being known to support a healthy immune system, which can be shortened to 'immune booster', which then can be (mis)interpreted as a bad thing, because the immune system is already misbehaving, so why 'boost' bad behaviour.
my 2c, language can be troublesome. don't ignore deficits in essential nutrients when immune system dysfunction is known to be one of the consequences.

[zjac020]

ok...understood. i personally have never believed in MS being down to an over active immune system and hence why I dont like the idea of interferone (killing a fly with a canon type concept in my opinion).

[CureOrBust]

i believe that would relate to zinc being known to support a healthy immune system, which can be shortened to 'immune booster', which then can be (mis)interpreted as a bad thing, because the immune system is already misbehaving, so why 'boost' bad behaviour.
my 2c, language can be troublesome. don't ignore deficits in essential nutrients when immune system dysfunction is known to be one of the consequences.

Careful not to oversimplify opinions that disagree with yours.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.410200610/abstract

Abstract
Previous studies have shown that zinc levels in erythrocytes are significantly elevated in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). To examine the correlation between erythrocyte Zn levels and disease activity, we measured erythrocyte Zn levels longitudinally. Levels were dramatically decreased during a clinically documented exacerbation of MS. To determine the localization of increased Zn levels in MS erythrocytes, we employed standard techniques for the isolation of nonhemoglobin erythrocyte membrane ghosts. Patients with MS had three times more Zn in ghost material than did controls [I have no idea what they mean by "ghost material"...]. Chloroform–methanol extraction in erythrocyte ghosts followed by determination of Zn levels indicated that most of the membrane-bound Zn was associated with the lipid-soluble fraction. Non-lipid-associated Zn and total membrane protein concentration were similar in MS and control samples. Results suggest that mechanisms which govern cellular availability, compartmentalization of Zn, or the binding of Zn to cell surface membranes may be altered in patients with MS, and that these mechanisms vary with disease activity.

There are opposing views out there to just about everything.

[zjac020]

very true about the opposing view to just about everything....

[NHE]

[I have no idea what they mean by "ghost material"...]

Ghosts are red blood cells that have been lysed. All of the hemoglobin has been lost and they look like clear round membranous sacks.

[jerrygallow]

so what does that mean in English? I am English major. Boy do I wish I had taken Biology or something. I can't get a straight answer on zinc and copper. One study says copper is low, and since you need copper to make myelin, you should take it. Then three other studies say copper is high, while manganese and zinc are low. Then they say, well the copper is high in the serum because the body is fighting inflammation. Then we hear how we need zinc. But wait, zinc stimulates the immune system. Yet people who live near zinc smelters get MS at higher rates. But that's a different kind of zinc. And all those people who took zinc laden denture cream were diagnosed with MS. But maybe that was a demyelinating condition based on copper deficiency that just looked like MS. oh the humanity

[zjac020]

now I am once again worried about supplementing zinc...oh dear

[jimmylegs]

this stuff is not confusing to me.. complex, sure, but not incomprehensible.. but then i have been reading about it for quite a few yrs now.

yes you can have too much of an essential nutrient, or too little.

yes, zinc toxicity is bad for you:

Multiple sclerosis and the workplace
http://www.neurology.org/content/37/10/1672.short (industry cluster. serum levels? exposure? was this 'ms', or zinc toxicity/copper deficiency neuropathy?)

Denture cream.An unusual source of excess zinc, leading to hypocupremia and neurologic disease
https://www.neurology.org/content/71/9/639.abstract (serum levels 20-65 umol/L)

Letter: re DENTURE CREAM: AN UNUSUAL SOURCE OF EXCESS ZINC, LEADING TO HYPOCUPREMIA AND NEUROLOGIC DISEASE
https://www.neurology.org/content/73/1/76.1.extract (at doses around 150mg per day!)

yes, zinc toxicity can be fatal, never mind little old ms:

Fatal copper deficiency from excessive use of zinc-based denture adhesive
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20555248 (i can't get this one - anyone have the serum values for copper and zinc here?)

Acute intravenous zinc poisoning (this is a terribly sad case report starting with crohn's/bowel resection/zinc deficiency followed by zinc treatment error)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 4-0024.pdf
"... zinc intoxication was confirmed by analysing the intravenous solutions prescribed and by a serum zinc concentration of 640 umol/l"

yes, zinc as an essential nutrient is low in ms:

Zinc and copper in multiple sclerosis.
http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/45/8/691.short

Iron and zinc status in multiple sclerosis patients with pressure sores
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/33965 ... VJX477s.24

The Co-Occurrence of Multiple Sclerosis and Migraine Headache: The Serotoninergic Link
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10 ... 9408986007

Serum level of iron, zinc and copper in patients with multiple sclerosis
http://jmj.jums.ac.ir/~jumsjmj/files/si ... 0187b3.pdf

Serum chemical elements and oxidative status in Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson disease and multiple sclerosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17267042
"To obtain a profile of chemical elements and oxidative status in complex neurological diseases, an unbiased "omics" approach, i.e., quantification of 26 elements and oxidative stress parameters (serum oxidative status (SOS) and serum anti-oxidant capacity (SAC)), combined with multivariate statistical procedures (forward discriminant analysis, FDA) to analyse the vast amount of data, was applied to four groups of subjects (53 patients with Alzheimer's disease (AD), 71 with Parkinson disease (PD), 60 with multiple sclerosis (MS) and 124 healthy individuals). Descriptive statistics revealed numerous differences between each disease and healthy status. A concordant imbalance (reduction in Fe, Zn and SAC, and increase in SOS) was shared by AD, PD and MS."

yes, zinc dysregulation has been reported in ms patients compared to controls:

Zinc in multiple sclerosis. II: Correlation with disease activity and elevated plasma membrane–bound zinc in erythrocytes from patients with multiple sclerosis
"Previous studies have shown that zinc levels in erythrocytes are significantly elevated in patients with multiple sclerosis (MS). ... erythrocyte Zn levels ... were dramatically decreased during a clinically documented exacerbation of MS. ... mechanisms which govern cellular availability, compartmentalization of Zn, or the binding of Zn to cell surface membranes may be altered in patients with MS, and that these mechanisms vary with disease activity"

Zinc in muliple [sic] sclerosis
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 9/abstract
"Erythrocyte-bound zinc levels were significantly increased (p < 0.05) in patients with multiple sclerosis when compared with control subjects. ... these values may suggest alterations in the control mechanisms governing zinc compartmentalization in patients with multiple sclerosis."

Essential fatty acid and lipid profiles in plasma and erythrocytes in patients with multiple sclerosis
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/50/4/801.short
"...altered levels of cholesterol in plasma and erythrocytes from MS patients may contribute to increased erythrocyte-membrane Zn in MS patients"

and though more research is needed, ms patients have been shown to consume less than RDA for zinc (which is a mere 8-11mg for adults; upper limit 40mg)
http://msj.sagepub.com/content/11/1/24.short
in comparison, about half of the general public aren't getting enough daily zinc - adult mean intake was 13mg as per NHANES 3
http://www.idpas.org/pdf/2791ZincIntakeOfUS.pdf
" Mean total zinc intakes were 0.7 mg higher in adolescents (11.1 mg) and 2.5–3.5 mg higher in adults (13 mg) compared with mean dietary intakes"
“Adequate” zinc intake in this survey population was 55.6% based on total intakes of >77% of the 1989 recommended dietary allowance."

and no, you don't want low or high copper either. you want the copper zinc ratio around 1.1.

healthy controls repeatedly average serum zinc about 18, and that means serum copper around 17.

i have yet to see any TiMS member's serum zinc result come back high (with the exception of mine, once, when i was just learning, and working on my very first deficiency correction). and i have yet to see any TiMS member test for serum zinc and copper and have it optimal on the first try.

[zjac020]

ok..all very interesting Jimmylegs and I know you know your stuff!!!

im guessing that if im supplementing 2x50mg of zinc daily I might be a tad on the high side. im also supplementing copper with 2mg...

[jimmylegs]

100mg per day is good for say up to 1 month, to correct deficiency.

100mg per day is too high for long term maintenance use.

depending on an individual's dietary zinc intake, absorption (eg hydration / stomach acid), as well as potential interference from phytates, gluten, dairy, sugar, alcohol etc, one may need as much as 50mg per day of supplemental zinc, to maintain optimal serum levels.

personally, my 50mg zinc citrate product is balanced with 2mg copper.

when supplementing zinc, it's wise to pay close attention to iron status (serum ferritin). iron status can drop when zinc is too high AND when it is too low.

[jerrygallow]

thanks for the good info jimmylegs

[jimmylegs]

no problem