Spasticity question....

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Spasticity question....

Postby silverwings87 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:31 pm

Hey, I was just wondering what spasticity spasms felt like...

I've had the aches and pains, but does anyone have any slight spasms? Like the ones people get on eyelids if they are too tired or something?

I've had a slight spasm that started on my eyelid by my lashes, then that went away, and its above my eye under my brow. They are now showing up randomly around my nose, my cheek, my lips, my chin, my fingers, and other random muscles... They usually don't last long, but all and all it's been almost 3-4 months that I've had them. If I squint my eyes I can make the one on my eyelid happen a few times... Just wondering if it could be anything realated..


Ps. I. It started before I was taking any supplements, but now I'm taking magnesium, multis, and vit. D3.
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby standingtall » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:06 pm

No authority here, but speaking from personal experience I would say yes this is spasticity. I get similiar muscle twitches in all sorts of odd places.........When I was first dx'd, I asked my neuro about these, and they would say it was not MS. I have come to the conclusion that unless I am having a major MS attack that fits the "clinical definition" that all of my other symptoms are dismissed from being MS related. Now that my rant is out of the way, what can you do about your spasms or twitches? The few things I have found that help are: 1. Rest when I am tired. Sometimes I have noted that these types of spasms surface when I have overexerted myself. 2. Keep a check on your vitamin and mineral levels. The two that seemed to make the most difference in the area of spasms or spasticity are B12 and magnesium. 3. If the spams or twitches are in an area that can be stretched, stretching that muscle sometimes helps it to relax. I have gotten pretty inventive on how to stretch a lot of muscles.
Have you been diagnosed with MS or suspect MS? Or are you concerned that your spasms indicate MS? Just wondering, because it is a big difference.
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:14 pm

hi sw, can you tell me dosage, specific forms, and timing on the mag and d3?
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby silverwings87 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:02 pm

standingtall wrote:No authority here, but speaking from personal experience I would say yes this is spasticity. I get similiar muscle twitches in all sorts of odd places.........When I was first dx'd, I asked my neuro about these, and they would say it was not MS. I have come to the conclusion that unless I am having a major MS attack that fits the "clinical definition" that all of my other symptoms are dismissed from being MS related. Now that my rant is out of the way, what can you do about your spasms or twitches? The few things I have found that help are: 1. Rest when I am tired. Sometimes I have noted that these types of spasms surface when I have overexerted myself. 2. Keep a check on your vitamin and mineral levels. The two that seemed to make the most difference in the area of spasms or spasticity are B12 and magnesium. 3. If the spams or twitches are in an area that can be stretched, stretching that muscle sometimes helps it to relax. I have gotten pretty inventive on how to stretch a lot of muscles.
Have you been diagnosed with MS or suspect MS? Or are you concerned that your spasms indicate MS? Just wondering, because it is a big difference.



Thanks for your response, and I completely understand what you're going through so many doctors have just dismissed things it's so frustrating LOL.

So far I have not been officially diagnosed but many things have been pointing there, from a few different doctors.. I'm just wondering if it could be spasticity or something like that since its been going on for so long, And happening in so many different places..



Right now I'm getting about 2400iu of my vitamin d, and 290mg of Magnesium. I don't think I'm getting too much of anything because this happened before it was taking my vitamins, I am waiting until I can get some blood tests and recommendations from the doctor to see if I need to take anymore.
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:55 am

if it's nutritional it could be low magnesium, for a variety of reasons (often insufficient dietary intake plus various kinds of stress), prior to starting supplements.

magnesium status is known to be low in ms patients. if you high dose d3 without carefully balancing and timing the magnesium intake, it can drive magnesium levels down still further.

290 mg is below the daily recommended amount and your absorption from supplements depends on the form you are taking. for example magnesium oxide while it contains a high proportion of elemental magnesium, it is an insoluble and therefore poorly absorbed form. as such it can useful as a laxative, but not so much for relaxing muscles.

timing of supplemental intake is also key. if you take your magnesium at the same time as the d3, it can be monopolized by the d3, leaving none to supply the hundreds of other body processes that depend on magnesium.

you can try evaluating your diet for magnesium density, your lifestyle for magnesium depletion (include researching any medication you take for possible effects on magnesium status), ensuring (if you have not already done so) a highly soluble absorbable form of magnesium supplement like magnesium glycinate, and timing your supplemental intake carefully so that you take half of it at the same time as your vitamin d3, and the other half well away from any competition from d3.

are you planning to test for both d3 and magnesium levels?
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby standingtall » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:16 pm

silverwings87 wrote:
standingtall wrote:No authority here, but speaking from personal experience I would say yes this is spasticity. I get similiar muscle twitches in all sorts of odd places.........When I was first dx'd, I asked my neuro about these, and they would say it was not MS. I have come to the conclusion that unless I am having a major MS attack that fits the "clinical definition" that all of my other symptoms are dismissed from being MS related. Now that my rant is out of the way, what can you do about your spasms or twitches? The few things I have found that help are: 1. Rest when I am tired. Sometimes I have noted that these types of spasms surface when I have overexerted myself. 2. Keep a check on your vitamin and mineral levels. The two that seemed to make the most difference in the area of spasms or spasticity are B12 and magnesium. 3. If the spams or twitches are in an area that can be stretched, stretching that muscle sometimes helps it to relax. I have gotten pretty inventive on how to stretch a lot of muscles.
Have you been diagnosed with MS or suspect MS? Or are you concerned that your spasms indicate MS? Just wondering, because it is a big difference.



Thanks for your response, and I completely understand what you're going through so many doctors have just dismissed things it's so frustrating LOL.

So far I have not been officially diagnosed but many things have been pointing there, from a few different doctors.. I'm just wondering if it could be spasticity or something like that since its been going on for so long, And happening in so many different places..



Right now I'm getting about 2400iu of my vitamin d, and 290mg of Magnesium. I don't think I'm getting too much of anything because this happened before it was taking my vitamins, I am waiting until I can get some blood tests and recommendations from the doctor to see if I need to take anymore.


I would not be too quick to assume MS based on muscle spasms. Hopefully you do not have MS, or anything else for that matter.
Your original question was "what does spasticity spasms feel like"? That is a broad question that ranges from person to person, depending on many different variables. Speaking only from my personal experience, my "twitch's" don't feel like anything really. At the very most they sometimes feel like my skin is crawling. Most of the time I don't notice them unless I am sitting around watching TV or maybe when I am going to sleep. When I am busy, I don't even notice but I know they are still occuring. Prior to diagnosis, I would have the same thing but always dismissed it as getting older or just being tired. First real MS attack was optic neuritis in the right eye, the same eye that I often had eye lid twitches in prior to diagnosis......... My spouse has the same thing, but they don't have MS. Occasional muscle twitch, for lack of a better term, is common and not really indicative of anything as a stand alone symptom unless they interfere with normal activity or function. Hope this might help ease your mind.

Checking your vitamin and mineral levels is a must. Taking them without knowing what your level's are could be causing more harm than good, or at the very least not taking enough supplement to get your levels where they need to be.
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby THX1138 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:39 pm

Muscle twitches are certainly one of the possible Mg deficiency symptoms. So are muscle cramps/spasms.

The usual Mg test (serum Mg) is very often misleading:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... clinicians

The RBC Mg test would be a far better choice - it could steer you in the right direction, instead of the wrong direction.

An excellent book on Magnesium is: The Magnesium Miracle

The majority of people are Mg deficient.

Use of Mg oil (on the skin) allows people to take in far more Mg with no possible stool softening effect.

Good Luck
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:04 am

serum values are useful as long as one is well aware of the pitfalls associated with the 'normal' range.

the main reason I personally avoid rbc is b/c there are fewer research studies out there using it as a measure. there's great replication of data on a healthy optimal range in the studies that look at serum mag.

I've looked at mg oil.. the product I examined turned out not to be oil at all. I got the impression of bottled Epsom salts bath water. the unit price didn't appeal!

neither food sources nor quality soluble organic supplement forms like mag glycinate have laxative effect. (if one *wants* laxative effect try mag oxide -VERY EFFECTIVE! dose it carefully)
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby THX1138 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:27 pm

Thanks for your replies jimmylegs. You really are an asset to the community!

Magnesium Oil is a supersaturated solution of Magnesium Chloride and water. It is called "Oil" because it feels sort-of oily. No oil in it, though.

Epsom salts are Magnesium Sulfate and the amount of Mg in Epsom salts bath water is tiny compared to the amount in Magnesium Oil.

One can make Magnesium Oil by mixing about 2-3 cups of Magnesium Chloride flakes per cup of water.

When I got my first bottle of Mg Oil, I was eager to try it and see if I could feel any difference, so I took the bottle that had just arrived, sat down and started rubbing into my forearm. I tried to remain skeptical, but after about 10-15 minutes, I felt so very relaxed that any skepticism was gone. I've been using it nearly daily ever since (nearly a year now.)

A doctor (ND) told me once that feeling relaxed from taking Mg indicates a real need for more Mg. These days I don't get the wonderful relaxation much anymore, but the muscle spasms/tightness have improved a lot!
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:06 pm

interesting i'll have to go back and do some more research and math. whatever I found out initially wasn't convincing. if you have really nerdy biochem links re comparison of ppms of elemental mag in various solutions, i'd be interested in checking that out. personally to date I've been fine with serum tests, food and oral supplements ... BUT I do like to have a topical option or two in the toolkit in case it's useful for someone else.
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby THX1138 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:46 pm

The high level of magnesium in Magnesium Oil is due to the fact that the amount of Magnesium Chloride Flakes added to water (Mg/water ratio) is so large compared to the amount one would add to bath water (unless they are really hardcore:)

I have also read that Magnesium chloride is absorbed better than Magnesium sulfate.
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:05 pm

gotta be careful with the bath water even so.. I've read cases where people who added too much Epsom salts to the bath water paid for it.

omg I was looking for the study which was pretty innocuous.. and found these instead :(

Hypermagnesemia-induced fatality following epsom salt gargles
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7901004620

omg a 7 yr old, in 2005 :(

Fatal Hypermagnesemia Caused by an Epsom Salt Enema: A Case Illustration
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonlin ... lt.30.aspx

I can't believe these dates :S

Deliberate overdose with Epsom salts (2009)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3030276/

takeaway point: the Epsom salt bath is for the outside :(
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby THX1138 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:34 pm

Yes outside, that's right:)
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby dlynn » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:29 am

jimmylegs,
Thanks for all the good information on magnesium. I never knew it could be so toxic.
What would be considered a safe amount of Epsom salt in a foot soak? And how is it dangerous in the bath, are the symptoms
the same as if you gargled with too much? I occasionally soak my feet in it, it's so relaxing (and it makes my skin soft).
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Re: Spasticity question....

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:45 am

hi :) it's safe if you make the solution per the package directions. absorption is vastly different through skin as compared to mucous membranes, so don't worry on that score.

the only study I ever saw that involved negative reaction to bathing in Epsom salts, was one where someone had made the bath too strong and experienced muscle weakness as a result. i'm sure a foot bath would be even less risky. the author's caution was to follow pkg directions.

without having a packet here to read the instructions provided, my understanding is that a couple of cups is good for a bath, and a half a cup is good for a foot soak.

FYI, we talk here about correcting low values by getting numbers from .7 or .8 to say 1.0 or 1.1, while some of the toxicity numbers were WAY higher .. in the 40s in one case if memory serves.
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