This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

[marcopolo]

I've been taking Niacin (flush) not to be confused with (No Flush) 500mg/day for about a month now
and occasionally especially when I get a good flush I experience an increase in strength and feeling like
I could run a marathon. Unfortunately it doesn't stay and this feeling eventually dwindles after a few hours.

Knowing the effects of niacin this goes a long way to supporting the cardio-vascular
nature of the disease.

Also I finding conflicting reports on the safe level or amount to take given the supplements implications
with excess use and the liver. Is 500mg to much or can I increase it?

[Annesse]

I would be careful in the use of supplemental niacin. It has been associated with increasing the levels of homocysteine. Homocysteine is very much involved in the MS disease process. I have been making some posts on this under the thread "Some Interesting Connections".


Here is one study on the association between niacin and raised levels of homocysteine.

Br J Nutr. 2002 Feb;87(2):115-9.
Niacin (nicotinic acid) in non-physiological doses causes hyperhomocysteineaemia in Sprague-Dawley rats.
Basu TK, Makhani N, Sedgwick G.


"Niacin (nicotinic acid) in its non-physiological dose level is known to be an effective lipid-lowering agent; its potential risk as a therapeutic agent, however, has not been critically considered. Since niacin is excreted predominantly as methylated pyridones, requiring methionine as a methyl donor, the present study was undertaken to examine whether metabolism of the amino acid is altered in the presence of large doses of niacin. Male Sprague-Dawley rats were given a nutritionally adequate, semi-synthetic diet containing niacin at a level of either 400 or 1000mg/kg diet (compared to 30mg/kg in the control diet) for up to 3 months. Supplementation with niacin (1,000 mg/kg diet) for 3 months resulted in a significant increase in plasma and urinary total homocysteine levels; this increase was further accentuated in the presence of a high methionine diet. The hyperhomocysteineaemia was accompanied by a significant decrease in plasma concentrations of vitamins B6 and B12, which are cofactors for the metabolism of homocysteine. The homocysteine-raising action of niacin, in particular, has an important toxicological implication, as hyperhomocysteineaemia is considered to be an independent risk factor for arterial occlusive disease. The niacin-associated change in homocysteine status may be an important limiting factor in the use of this vitamin as a lipid-lowering agent."

[marcopolo]

Hmm interesting....B6 and B12 deficiency's contribute to elevated homocysteine. TMG or (anhydrous betaine) apparantly lowers homocysteine levels. Seems
futile to take one to counteract the other to try and salvage some of it benefits. Maybe at the end of the day it comes down to good diet. Still doesn't
explain the brief benefits I experience.

[THX1138]

I would be careful in the use of supplemental niacin. It has been associated with increasing the levels of homocysteine. Homocysteine is very much involved in the MS disease process. I have been making some posts on this under the thread "Some Interesting Connections".


Here is one study on the association between niacin and raised levels of homocysteine.

Br J Nutr. 2002 Feb;87(2):115-9.
Niacin (nicotinic acid) in non-physiological doses causes hyperhomocysteineaemia in Sprague-Dawley rats.
Basu TK, Makhani N, Sedgwick G.


"Niacin (nicotinic acid) in its non-physiological dose level is known to be an effective lipid-lowering agent; its potential risk as a therapeutic agent, however, has not been critically considered. Since niacin is excreted predominantly as methylated pyridones, requiring methionine as a methyl donor, the present study was undertaken to examine whether metabolism of the amino acid is altered in the presence of large doses of niacin. Male Sprague-Dawley rats were given a nutritionally adequate, semi-synthetic diet containing niacin at a level of either 400 or 1000mg/kg diet (compared to 30mg/kg in the control diet) for up to 3 months. Supplementation with niacin (1,000 mg/kg diet) for 3 months resulted in a significant increase in plasma and urinary total homocysteine levels; this increase was further accentuated in the presence of a high methionine diet. The hyperhomocysteineaemia was accompanied by a significant decrease in plasma concentrations of vitamins B6 and B12, which are cofactors for the metabolism of homocysteine. The homocysteine-raising action of niacin, in particular, has an important toxicological implication, as hyperhomocysteineaemia is considered to be an independent risk factor for arterial occlusive disease. The niacin-associated change in homocysteine status may be an important limiting factor in the use of this vitamin as a lipid-lowering agent."

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it sounds like the rats were given much, much more niacin than any person would take -

niacin at a level of either 400 or 1000mg/kg diet

If a person weighed 220 pounds (100kg), to take as much niacin as the rats did, the person would have to consume 40,000 mg to 100,000 mg of niacin. NOBODY i've ever heard of ever takes anywhere near this amount.

[Annesse]

Here is another study that found an association between niacin and raised levels of homocysteine.


American Heart Journal
Volume 138, Issue 6, December 1999, Pages 1082–1087

Niacin treatment increases plasma homocyst(e)ine levels
Rekha Garg, MD, MSa,M. Malinow, MDb, Mary Pettinger, MSc, Barbara Upson, BSb, Donald Hunninghake, MDd,


"Background Studies have reported high levels of plasma homocyst(e)ine as an independent risk factor for arterial occlusive disease. The Cholesterol Lowering Atherosclerosis Study reported an increase in plasma homocyst(e)ine levels in patients receiving both colestipol and niacin compared with placebo. Thus the objective of this study was to examine the effect of niacin treatment on plasma homocyst(e)ine levels. Methods The Arterial Disease Multiple Intervention Trial, a multicenter randomized, placebo-controlled trial, examined the effect of niacin compared with placebo on homocyst(e)ine in a subset of 52 participants with peripheral arterial disease. Results During the screening phase, titration of niacin dose from 100 mg to 1000 mg daily resulted in a 17% increase in mean plasma homocyst(e)ine level from 13.1 ± 4.4 μmol/L to 15.3 ± 5.6 μmol/L (P < .0001). At 18 weeks after randomization, there was an absolute 55% increase from baseline in mean plasma homocyst(e)ine levels in the niacin group and a 7% decrease in the placebo group (P = .0001). This difference remained statistically significant at the end of follow-up at 48 weeks. Conclusions Niacin substantially increased plasma homocyst(e)ine levels, which could potentially reduce the expected benefits of niacin associated with lipoprotein modification. However, plasma homocyst(e)ine levels can be decreased by folic acid supplementation. Thus further studies are needed to determine whether B vitamin supplementation to patients undergoing long-term niacin treatment would be beneficial. (Am Heart J 1999;138:1082-7.)"

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0399700736

[THX1138]

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but some of us (I for one) experience amazing, albeit temporary improvement with niacin. Additionally, it is part of the Klenner protocol.
I have a few questions that you may be able to answer:

1)

The Cholesterol Lowering Atherosclerosis Study reported an increase in plasma homocyst(e)ine levels in patients receiving both colestipol and niacin compared with placebo.

Does the same happen if the colestipol is not included ?

2) What type of niacin was used in the study ?

3)

However, plasma homocyst(e)ine levels can be decreased by folic acid supplementation.

Does folic acid supplementation completely override the effect on homocyst(e)ine ?

Regarding question 3, I will just add that B vitamins work best as a team, not individually.

Thanks,
THX1138

[Annesse]

Hi THX1138,

Sorry, I don't really know the answers to your questions.

I just think an understanding of the entire disease process can be a protection against doing anything that may lead to further harm. If Dr. Klenner was aware that homocysteine was involved in the MS disease process and that there was research that connected its increase to niacin, he may not have recommended niacin.

I just wanted marcopolo to be aware of the connection.

[THX1138]

Thanks Annesse.

The issue you brought up with the studies is a good one to consider.

THX1138

[CureOrBust]

A little behind in timing, but I just re-skimmed the original post and noticed you were taking 500mg of flushing Niacin. How strong was your original flush? and do you still flush every day?

I ask about the original as a year or two ago I got some flushing niacin tablets and had to take 1g on an empty stomach to get a strong flush. Recently I purchased some 500mg capsules and they give me a VERY strong flush even after a small snack; it just slows the process down. ie the brand makes a BIG difference.

[cheerleader]

When I was looking at vasodilating/NO increasing substances for the endothelial health program, I didn't include niacin/B3 because it's tough on the liver. It can be toxic to the liver and monitoring of liver enzymes while taking higher doses of niacin is recommended because of this.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/niacin ... ION=safety
since Jeff had high liver enzymes (AST and ALT 10x normal), I was looking for ways to reduce them, and reduce homocysteine.

-turned out it was important to make sure B12 levels are good. All things in balance and moderation, I guess! Including B vitamins.

Low vitamin B12 creates high levels of homocysteine in the blood (a sulfur containing amino acid) which damages the endothelium. An unbalanced diet, a strict vegetarian diet that excludes all meat, fish, dairy and eggs diet, or a diet overly reliant on processed foods, could all lead to low vitamin B12 levels, potentially damaging the endothelium20.

http://www.ccsvi.org/index.php/helping- ... ial-health

HTH,
cheer

[THX1138]

Can anyone recommend a solid, comprehensive source for info on all types of niacin?

Thanks,
THX1138

[THX1138]

It seems there may be more people out there that get great results from niacin flushing than I realized. I just ran across this:

http://www.overcomingmultiplesclerosis.org/Community/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2520&start=10

THX1138

[THX1138]

Here is another link from the above site:

http://www.overcomingmultiplesclerosis.org/Community/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3889

I'm really eager to read it, but I really need to go to bed now.

THX1138

[marcopolo]

From what I have read b6 and b12 metabolize homocystine along with folic acid. Not prepared to give up my 'high' albeit brief
but you got to ask yourself why is that. Again it goes along way to support the cardio vascular nature of the disease.

Someday soon someone's going to wake up and the lights going to go on and we'll all be better off because of it.

[THX1138]

Below are a few old posts of mine:


Niacin has lead me on a path to increase my blood flow.

I have found that when I get a STRONG niacin flush, my walking improves greatly (a night and day difference.)
By a "STRONG niacin flush" I mean one that goes all the way down to my toes. Weaker flushes are of little help.

My vision improves as well - more clarity and much better color saturation.

Too bad the niacin flush only lasts less than half an hour. So I am working on other ways to dilate my blood vessels. Both Magnesium and Vinpocetine are vasodilators and these are proving helpful.

If you think your magnesium level is fine because a doctor gave you a test that came out "normal" check this out:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=a+warning+to+clinicians+magnesium

Good Luck

THX1138

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today I did a good magnesium oil treatment and about an hour later I drank a vitamin B3 drink (my own recipe).

I drank it. In about 15 minutes...
The niacin flush was coming on strong; my skin was red, and I was amazingly full of energy.
Then I went for a walk. Right away it was obvious that the flush was really working.
My legs felt light and swung freely instead of the tight bound up feeling.
I was walking fairly well and it was easy to walk much faster than usual.

In total, I walked about 2 blocks (way farther than I can normally walk).

After about the first block, the niacin flush started to fade, and so did I. I should have started the walk earlier on in the flush, which lasted about 20 minutes. My condition was returning to normal. I was starting to think I might not make it home without falling. I made it though.


From then on, I was back to my usual low energy, stiff-walking self. It sure was reassuring, though, to see that I was able to walk well for at least a while. It had been several months since the last time my walking had transformed so much from the niacin flush.

So I continue to try to fix this obvious blood flow problem I have.


Anyone else ever have a similar experience??

Thanks,
THX1138