More Theory

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More Theory

Postby Kronk » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:55 pm

There are very few constants across everyone with MS. But here are a few…

pwMS have too much histamine in the central spinal fluid.
pwMS have too much saturated fat in plasma (cell membranes).
pwMS have white blood cells targeting myelin.
pwMS have a weak or compromised blood brain barrier.

I believe all 4 are required for Multiple Sclerosis to develop. The excess saturated fat causes an increase in thrombin or coagulation. Histamine combined with thrombin has been proven to create large and sustained holes in the blood brain barrier. These holes then allow white blood cells activated to attack myelin into the CSF. Issues with endothelial layers or BBB are common and often take the form of coronary or vascular diseases. Individuals with these issues do not have MS because they lack the activated white blood cells.

Clinically isolated syndrome may be due to a temporary lapse in the BBB allowing myelin active white blood cells into the CSF. The people who have had clinically isolated syndrome may not have persistent issues with the BBB and therefore only have a problem when it temporarily breaks down. Though they live with the activated white blood cells it is not an issue as they do not have access to myelin. It is reported that over time the majority of CIS become RRMS, likely due to the natural breakdown of the BBB as we age.

The one proven therapy to be effective with MS is a complete re-write of the immune system. Powerful chemotherapy drugs are used to kill all the immune cells in the body and then a new immune system is created from stem cells. While this would not solve the issue with the BBB it would eliminate the white blood cells activated to attack myelin.

On the flip side if you healed your BBB you should be able to reduce the access of white blood cells to myelin. Diets have a great deal of anecdotal and some clinical evidence to support this claim. I prefer the Swank diet as it reduces saturated fat which causes much of the issues with the BBB. Eating an alkaline diet low in saturated fat would do 2 things. First it would decrease the amount of saturated fat in the membranes of endothelial and other cells reducing thrombosis. Second it would increase the release of histamine in the gut, potentially reducing its levels in the body.

While this info is not a smoking gun I think it provides a reasonable explanation for many of the similarities seen across the board in MS patients. Pardon the amount of links

Sat fat effect on the endothelium WOW
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3606733
Endothelial description
http://www.lab.anhb.uwa.edu.au/mb140/mo ... dothel.htm
Sat fat damaging endothelial cells particularly palmitic and stearic
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1604444
Low fat diets reduce thrombin
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... w_fat_diet
Thrombin and subendothelium
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11307830
Consumption of saturated fat impairs the anti-inflammatory properties of high-density lipoproteins and endothelial function.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904539
Consumption of an SAFA-rich meal is harmful for the endothelium, while a MUFA-rich meal does not impair endothelial function
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2584179/
Clear link between sat fat and thrombin activity
http://books.google.ca/books?id=xY9mnvC ... at&f=false
saturated NEFAs (palmitate and stearate) are proapoptotic, and unsaturated NEFAs (palmitoleate, oleate, and linoleate) are antilipoapoptotic
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/co ... /3121.full
inactivation of thrombin on the subendothelium. Healthy endothelium is able to inactivate thrombin and not produce a clot.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3660348
BBB issue in MS
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14664465
BBB functional roles
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17453713
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Re: More Theory

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:18 pm

haven't been tested for any of those four.. curious re the means by which vegans would have high sat fat in plasma?
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Re: More Theory

Postby Kronk » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:04 pm

Vegan diets aren't necessarily low in saturated fat. Seeds, nuts, vegan cheeses, are all quite high. But I don't believe diet is the primary cause of high saturated fat in our cells. It is likely an issue with enzymes or hematopoiesis (creation of cells) that is the issue. That being said it would make sense that if we limited dietary saturated fat we would have less of it in our system to put into cells.
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Re: More Theory

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:20 pm

yes not necessarily low. but there are a lot of different ways to be vegan - it's not a diet choice that requires seeds, nuts or vegan cheese.
I agree that it's not likely negligible dietary sat fat could result in high plasma sat fat.
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Re: More Theory

Postby jerrygallow » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:23 pm

Colin Campbell has a little book out called the Low Carb Fraud. He takes on many of the Paleo arguments and shows why they don't prove what people think they do. I remember reading that most "low fat" diets, when studied are not really low fat. That's why they don't produce the results. He compares the Paleo diet with the Standard American Diet and the Med Diet, and the so called low fat diet. All had nearly the same amount of fat. The diet he recommends has only 7 to 10 percent calories from fat, which is extremely low.

But I do wonder about the Vegan question. I feel that avoiding dairy fat has been the single most effective thing I have done. I am not sure how someone who didn't consume milk products would have MS. It seems strongly linked to animal products. I wonder if there aren't two different things happening and both get called MS. For vegans, the lack of B12 and zinc would be very damaging, followed by the lack of certain amino acids. I certainly was no vegan. I ate animal products every chance I got.
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Re: More Theory

Postby Kronk » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:57 pm

jerrygallow wrote:I wonder if there aren't two different things happening and both get called MS.


I couldn't agree more!

The efficacy of meds is hit or miss, the disability rate, death rate, and overall course of the disease is completely different from person to person. It wouldn't be the first time similar symptoms get lumped into the same basket. Theories range from a protozoa transmitted from insect bites,to a lack of an enzyme in our gut, a form of EBV, or infection by bacteria. I say why not all of the above! One fact is that MS is on the rise, the rate of illness is up 12% since 2008. With that said If your identical twin, an exact genetic copy, gets MS you would still only have a 30% chance and that's assuming you grew up in the same environment with the same diet.

What I like looking at is the symptoms across everyone with MS, a common thread, there are very few. There are many more similarities to this disease beyond autoimmunity but that is all the medical community wants to focus on. Likely because that's what they know. Find a cause and kill it. Perhaps looking for a single cause is the error... and possibly what is throwing everyone off.
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Re: More Theory

Postby want2bike » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:38 am

Mr. Kronk's information comes from official government sites. The government (FDA) does not want to make you healthy. Just like the studies done by the drug companies. They use stupid science. If you believe government science you will never get well. Their job is not to make you well but to make money. If a doctor comes along who wants to make you well they throw him in jail. Following our government's advise will keep you sick.

Healing comes from the food we eat. We are not all the same so one diet does not make sense. Some people can't do gluten or dairy. Each of us must figure out the appropriate diet. There are certain principles for sure. When God placed Adam and Eve in the garden he told them to eat the fruits and vegetables bearing seeds. That was his instructions to us for good health. The problem we have today is the GMO issue. Organic fruits and vegetables is the place everyone should start. After you get your health back you can choose other foods but be aware of how they make you feel. The Ketogenic diet works for some people. It could be more beneficial for the brain to burn fat rather than glucose. Some people with Epilepsy or Alzheimer's do better on a Ketogenic Diet. Sugar is a big problem with our health for sure. No matter what diet we choose important to go organic as much as possible. The most important thing to understand the FDA is not there to make you healthy. They are there to put poison in our water, GMO's in our food, mercury in our mouth and approve drugs which kill us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzs9rhaSItM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGwkt1CWhhw

http://www.naturalhealthadvisory.com/da ... ia-stages/

http://josepharcita.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... tosis.html
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Re: More Theory

Postby HarryZ » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:18 am

want2bike wrote:Mr. Kronk's information comes from official government sites. The government (FDA) does not want to make you healthy. Just like the studies done by the drug companies. They use stupid science. If you believe government science you will never get well. Their job is not to make you well but to make money. If a doctor comes along who wants to make you well they throw him in jail. Following our government's advise will keep you sick.


If I ever get bitten by a rabid dog, I'll go try and find some organic fruits and vegetables to treat the rabies. If my doctor offers the Rabies Vaccine (approved by that nasty FDA) I'll tell her that all drugs are bad for you and that the FDA is evil and only wants me to make me sicker with the stupid science they are given.
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Re: More Theory

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:38 am

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Re: More Theory

Postby Kronk » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:44 am

Ok we will try and play nice :)

want2bike wrote:Each of us must figure out the appropriate diet. When God placed Adam and Eve in the garden he told them to eat the fruits and vegetables bearing seeds. That was his instructions to us for good health.


So wanna if we look past your "questionable" conspiracy theories the premise of all your ideas is based on the fact that the human body was created perfect in gods image. And we have messed it up by eating evil foods. Does this sum it up?

Because there are SO MANY issues with this theory that it almost does not warrant a reply... but here is one, how do you explain people born with illnesses such as MSUD (maple syrup urine disease) they lack enzymes to metabolize certain amino acids and will die if they consume too much of them. There is no cure, no diet will ever give them back these enzymes. Also this disease is prevalent in the Amish who do not eat GMO, are not exposed to most modern toxins and for the most part live healthy active lives.

The FACT is the human body is not perfect, it never has been, we have many issues that have nothing to do with diet. Despite these issues the FACT is that people are living healthier and longer lives than ever in History. Your theories are simply not relevant, and I think you are posting on the wrong board to have people jump on your government fearing bandwagon. This site is for people interested in MS research, you do not have MS, and you do not want to discuss MS research, you only seek to slam the FDA and governments. So why do you post here?
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Re: More Theory

Postby HarryZ » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:05 pm

Kronk wrote:There are very few constants across everyone with MS. But here are a few…

pwMS have too much histamine in the central spinal fluid.


Hi Kronk,

There is misunderstanding out there when it comes to histamine and MS.

The mistake people make is thinking there is only one form of histamine. Histamine is produced in the body and brain from the amino acid histidine. Then histamine goes down different pathways. One pathway is the diamine oxidase pathway to the H1 form of histamine which is the allergic form of histamine. Another pathway is the monoamine oxidase-A pathway and this converts histamine to the H2 form of histamine. This is the form of histamine that MS patients are lacking because of a deficiency in their monoamine oxidase-A enzyme activity. In the brain H2 is the form of histamine that is supposed to be produced and not the H1 form. The H1 form of histamine in the brain with the thrombin would be characteristic of an inflammatory immune response.

An alternative MS medication, Prokarin, addresses this H2 histamine short fall. My wife (passed away 2007) used Prokarin for 7 years and it brought her a great deal of MS symptom relief, especially fatigue. Only one clinical trial was ever done with Prokarin and while it showed promise per the review, the NMSS ensured that the results got squashed in the world of MS medicine.

Prokarin is still available in the form of a transdermal patch but most docs know little if anything about it. The cost is very low compared to other MS drugs and there are few if any side effects. It doesn't work for everyone, like all MS meds, but for some it can help with the nasty symptoms, especially fatigue.

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Re: More Theory

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:50 pm

hmm maybe i'll try this instead:

5 Simple Steps for Dealing with Trolls
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic17040.html#p168997

if you go through that topic, there's particularly useful advice to be had (even if as a mod I'm not necessarily able to walk the talk)
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Re: More Theory

Postby Kronk » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:09 pm

Hi Harry, very sorry to hear about your wife but i am glad you still come on this forum to share your knowledge and experiences. Us Canucks are getting hit hard by MS...

HarryZ wrote:There is misunderstanding out there when it comes to histamine and MS.


You are very correct about Histamine, there are 4 known histamine receptors, and as you said some make MS symptoms worse and others some show positive results. The H3 receptor shows the most promise. It is unfortunate how Elaine Delack and her treatment Prokarin was received. If they researched her work more at the time they likely would have found out about the H3 receptor much earlier.

Histamine H3 receptors are best known as presynaptic receptors inhibiting the release of histamine and many neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine and dopamine.


H3 has been the primary receptor researched for MS and as shown above it inhibits the release of Histamine itself. It functions to control histamine turnover by feedback inhibition of histamine synthesis and release. The fact is we have too much histamine in our CSF and we know that when it is combined with Thrombin it creates holes in the BBB. So I strongly believe it takes part of the blame for MS symptoms. A diet will likely only mildly affect the amount of histamine in our system because we lack proper amounts of the HMT enzyme to metabolize Histamine, but i believe it will help. Histamine intolerance is not an uncommon ailment and is often treated by diet. These diets restrict the consumption of processed meats, cheeses, preservatives, chocolate, soda pops, etc. much like the MS diets that seem to show some efficacy. Again this is just another theory to add to the mix but it seems to be working for me so i thought i would share.
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Re: More Theory

Postby HarryZ » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:28 pm

It is unfortunate how Elaine Delack and her treatment Prokarin was received. If they researched her work more at the time they likely would have found out about the H3 receptor much earlier.


Unfortunate puts it mildly! A number of MS docs at the time really trashed her work and made false statements about Prokarin. They had no knowledge about histamine but because her theory was against the established thinking, they didn't take the time of day to do any research on it.

When Elaine was invited to discuss MS on the Montel Williams show, the MS doc who rode in the same limo as her from the hotel totally refused to speak to her while he spoke to an MD who was Elaine's medical assistant at the time. And when the results of her trial were published the NMSS was unbelievably cruel in how they got that news item removed from the Good Morning America Show.

Elaine is still doing research on MS and still remains symptom free as long as she uses the Prokarin.
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Re: More Theory

Postby jerrygallow » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:59 pm

does this histamine affect allergies? I spoke with one MS patient, and she said she did not have any allergies. For me, it started when I was about 18. I remember coming home from college, and some days I would literally sneeze 30 times, back to back, and nothing seemed to help. I am not as bad now. But something was out of whack.
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