Vit D

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Vitamin D, Pregnancy and Progesterone

Postby Shayk » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:28 pm

Hi all

Here’s some info on pregnancy and MS. And yes it seems like Vitamin D3 levels rise in the third trimester and apparently drop post partum, per the following abstract.

Hormonal Changes During Late Pregnancy and Early Postpartum (If you click through there’s a link for free access to the full article.)
We report that during the third trimester pregnancy…..urinary cortisol and norepinephrine excretion and serum levels of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin were 2- to 3-fold higher than postpartum values.

Wonderfulworld
Logically, a baby is the biggest "foreign body" your own body ever has to accept, so it would make sense that the immune system dies down during the pg, and maybe it bounces back with extra force after the birth.

Besides estriol, progesterone is another hormone that’s high during pregnancy, drops after birth and may be a factor that suppresses the immune system during pregnancy but not after birth, when levels are much lower.

Progesterone Mediated Immunosuppression: Inhibition of K+ Channels
The mechanism by which progesterone causes localized suppression of the immune response during pregnancy has remained elusive…….

Progesterone effectively blocked a broad spectrum of K+ channels, reducing both Kv1.3

We propose that direct inhibition of K+ channels in T cells by progesterone contributes to progesterone-induced immunosuppression.

So, progesterone seems to block potassium channels, including Kv1.3 as a means of immune suppression. The “other side of the equation” is that some MS research suggests that potassium channel blockade may act to suppress immune mediated neurological diseases.

Potassium Channel Kv1.3 is Highly Expressed in MS Brain
These studies provide further rationale for the use of specific Kv1.3 antagonists in MS.

I find it all fascinating. Seems to me progesterone is a specific Kv1.3 antagonist. Progesterone also acts in the nervous system to provide neuroprotection and support myelination and spinal cord recovery (mice).

(Guys--you have progesterone too. :) )

Sharon
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Postby dignan » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:11 pm

Sharon,

Interesting stuff. I think you're on to something. On potassium channels, I had to add that there is another substance that's pre-clinical but could be promising...


Targeting effector memory T cells with a selective peptide inhibitor of Kv1.3 channels for therapy of autoimmune diseases.

ShK(L5) prevents and treats experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis and suppresses delayed type hypersensitivity in rats. ShK(L5) might prove useful for therapy of autoimmune disorders.

<shortened url>



And that same group of researchers just came out with this:


Kv1.3 channels are a therapeutic target for T cell-mediated autoimmune diseases.

Autoreactive memory T lymphocytes are implicated in the pathogenesis of autoimmune diseases. Here we demonstrate that disease-associated autoreactive T cells from patients with type-1 diabetes mellitus or rheumatoid arthritis (RA) are mainly CD4(+)CCR7(-)CD45RA(-) effector memory T cells (TEM cells) with elevated Kv1.3 potassium channel expression.

In contrast, T cells with other antigen specificities from these patients, or autoreactive T cells from healthy individuals and disease controls, express low levels of Kv1.3 and are predominantly naive or central-memory (TCM) cells. In TEM cells, Kv1.3 traffics to the immunological synapse during antigen presentation where it colocalizes with Kvbeta2, SAP97, ZIP, p56(lck), and CD4.

Although Kv1.3 inhibitors [ShK(L5)-amide (SL5) and PAP1] do not prevent immunological synapse formation, they suppress Ca(2+)-signaling, cytokine production, and proliferation of autoantigen-specific TEM cells at pharmacologically relevant concentrations while sparing other classes of T cells. Kv1.3 inhibitors ameliorate pristane-induced arthritis in rats and reduce the incidence of experimental autoimmune diabetes in diabetes-prone (DP-BB/W) rats. Repeated dosing with Kv1.3 inhibitors in rats has not revealed systemic toxicity. Further development of Kv1.3 blockers for autoimmune disease therapy is warranted.

<shortened url>
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feels good :)

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:41 am

i agree it's fascinating! that's my word of the year i think. was that a typo where they were quoted 1,25dihydroxyvitamin (as in they didn't specify D3?)

anyway yes that is the active metabolite after the second hydroxylation, the one called calcitriol, which is the cease-fire chemical for the immune system. love it!
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Postby bromley » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:04 am

Please, please. no more bloody Vit D posts - I only wanted to know how much to take! The tablets arrived today and I have started (4,000 IUs a day). If you have led me up the garden path with this Vit D stuff Jimmy, you'll be dealing with my lawyer and I'll be seeking repayment of the £12.89 I have spent on the four bottles of 100 tablets.

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Postby Melody » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:35 pm

Mushrooms might be the way to go :lol:

They are very low in calories, a source of B vitamins, good for your body's antioxidant system, available in more than 3,000 varieties in North America alone and taste great: These are just some of the reasons to love mushrooms.

In addition, researchers are trying to determine if exposure to sunlight increases the vitamin D content in mushrooms, which may make them useful in boosting the body's immune system response and disease resistance. In some tests, a standard-size serving of white button mushrooms exposed to sunlight for five minutes post-harvest contained 869 percent of a person's daily value for vitamin D.


From chanterelles to shiitakes, mushrooms have woody, fruity, earthy and sweet flavors to suit any taste. If you are looking for alternatives to ground meat in recipes, try diced creminis or buttons, while steak fans can try grilled portabellas.

http://www.nbc5i.com/health/10272673/detail.html
John was diagnosed Jan 2005. On lipitor 20mg .On Copaxone since July 4,2005. Vitamin D3 2000iu-4000iu (depending on sunshine months)June 10 2005(RX::Dr. O'Connor) Omega 3 as well Turmeric since April 2005. Q10 60mg. 1500mg liquid Glucosamine Nov 2005.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 13, 2008 7:35 am

hey there just kind of doing an update poll on this thread...

how much vit d3 are folks taking per day since we had this discussion?
how do you blend it with or separate it from other supplements in your regimen?
would you say subjectively that your supplementation has slowed progression any?
have you noticed any particular new symptoms since you started supplementing vit d3?
if so, what type of issue?
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Postby daverestonvirginia » Tue May 13, 2008 11:45 am

3,000 iu's a day of d3 in the Summer, 5,000 iu's a day in the Winter. half in the morning the other half in the evening with my other supplements, symptom feel since I started BBD and supplements.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 13, 2008 12:13 pm

thanks for answering dave.

symptom feel since I started BBD and supplements

better? hopefully?

what all do you take besides the d3? do you take certain things at certain times of day? in any particular combinations?
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Postby daverestonvirginia » Tue May 13, 2008 1:46 pm

Symptom FREE since I started BBD and supplements! I take all the supplements recommended by the BBD Best Bet Diet. And I must say the vitamin d was the hardest one to figure out. It took me over two years with having my vitamin d level checked ever 6 months to find the dosage level that was right for me. Started out taking too much in the Summer not enough in the Winter. I just take 1/2 the supplements in the morning with breakfast and the other 1/2 at night with dinner.
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue May 13, 2008 2:05 pm

that's great. i got symptoms because i wasn't paying attention to certain things, but i know BBD is on top of a few things i ignored at first. resolving now. awesome to hear dave! hopefully one day i'll get there too :D stupid oven mitts grr..
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Re: Vit D

Postby NHE » Wed May 14, 2008 12:55 am

Jimmylegs wrote:hey there just kind of doing an update poll on this thread...

how much vit d3 are folks taking per day since we had this discussion?
how do you blend it with or separate it from other supplements in your regimen?

Over several years I worked my way up from 260 IU to 400 IU to 800 IU and then was at 1000 IU for another year as I continued to learn more about the potential benefits from vitamin D. I had some problems and a urinalysis indicated a presence of calcium oxylate crystals. The Mayo Clinic's website suggested that this put me at risk for a kidney stone and that the presence of calcium oxylate crystals could be due to too much vitamin D. As a result, I'm now back at 200 IU and taking a blended supplement which has calcium, magnesium, and zinc.

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Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 14, 2008 7:11 am

thanks for that NHE! when you noticed the calcium issues, were you only taking d3 without the calcium, magnesium, and zinc?
i definitely benefited from adding magnesium to my day, at a diff time from the d3-cal-mag-zinc blend i had been taking prior. something to consider if you feel there would be any merit in your scenario :)
thanks for answering!
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Re: Vit D

Postby NHE » Wed May 14, 2008 12:26 pm

Jimmylegs wrote:when you noticed the calcium issues, were you only taking d3 without the calcium, magnesium, and zinc?

The 1000 IU D3 tablets I was taking had 233 mg of Ca2+ in them and no Mg2+ nor Zn2+.

On an additional note, I've had two family members that have struggled with kidney stones and I didn't want to be the third so I felt strongly that it was best to proceed with caution in my case.

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Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 14, 2008 6:29 pm

so interesting. wise to take precautions. when i was regularly taking high dose vitamin d3 (which i will do again but with better information to hand this time) i would try to take more of my calcium-magnesium-zinc blend to match. they would make my back ache, which i took as a sign that i was running too many minerals through. so i eased off.
after that exp, your mention of calcium and kidney stone risk rang bells. after investigating whether magnesium is protective against kidney stones...
"Magnesium may help prevent calcium crystallising in the kidneys to create kidney stones."

followed by the abstract hunt in support of that claim...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3282851
Dis Mon. 1988 Apr;34(4):161-218.
Magnesium metabolism in health and disease.
A large segment of the U.S. population may have an inadequate intake of magnesium and may have a chronic latent magnesium deficiency that has been linked to atherosclerosis, myocardial infarction, hypertension, cancer, kidney stones, premenstrual syndrome, and psychiatric disorders.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3282851
Magnesium status of patients with renal stones and its effect on urinary citrate excretion
Objectives: To assess the magnesium status and its effect on urinary citrate excretion in patients with renal stones, as they have a low muscular magnesium content.
Results: Nine of the patients with renal stones were magnesium deficient, as were six normal subjects from the same area...
Conclusions: ...The increase in urinary citrate excretion after magnesium supplementation suggests that magnesium is important in renal stone formation, through its effect on citrate metabolism.


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2068785
Potassium-magnesium citrate is an effective prophylaxis against recurrent calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis.
Purpose: We examined the efficacy of potassium-magnesium citrate in preventing recurrent calcium oxalate kidney calculi...
Conclusions: Potassium-magnesium citrate effectively prevents recurrent calcium oxalate stones, and this treatment given for up to 3 years reduces risk of recurrence by 85%.


so, i've learned that magnesium and zinc need to go in in significant amounts to balance the d3/calcium intake. i've also seen the error in taking them all at the same time in combination. yes you can do that, but some mag and zinc have to go in on their own. interesting!
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