all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Postby Nick » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:15 am

Hi Dredd

I didn't addressyour question of how much vitamin D I give to my two yr old youngster. Ideally I would like him to have 1000 to 2000 IU/d. There's not too much credible info out there which documents how much D a toddler should have. I believe a European Commission study concluded 1000 IU/d is safe for children under two.

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Interesting Vitamin D Articles

Postby NHE » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:06 am

I don't know if these have been discussed before, but I recently came across a couple interesting papers on vitamin D's role in MS. The first paper is available for free while I have only read the abstract for the second one.

Gene expression analysis suggests that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 reverses experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis by stimulating inflammatory cell apoptosis.
Physiol Genomics. 2004 Jul 8;18(2):141-51.
    Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a debilitating autoimmune disease of the central nervous system (CNS) that develops in genetically susceptible individuals who are exposed to undefined environmental risk factors. Epidemiological, genetic, and biological evidence suggests that insufficient vitamin D may be an MS risk factor. However, little is known about how vitamin D might be protective in MS. We hypothesized that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 [1,25-(OH)2D3] might regulate gene expression patterns in a manner that would resolve inflammation. To test this hypothesis, experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) was induced in mice, 1,25-(OH)2D3 or a placebo was administered, and 6 h later, DNA microarray hybridization was performed with spinal cord RNA to analyze the gene expression patterns. At this time, clinical, histopathological, and biological studies showed that the two groups did not differ in EAE disease, but changes in several 1,25-(OH)2D3-responsive genes indicated that the 1,25-(OH)2D3 had reached the CNS. Compared with normal mice, placebo-treated mice with EAE showed increased expression of many immune system genes, confirming the acute inflammation. When 1,25-(OH)2D3 was administered, several genes like glial fibrillary acidic protein and eukaryotic initiation factor 2alpha kinase 4, whose expression increased or decreased with EAE, returned to homeostatic levels. Also, two genes with pro-apoptotic functions, calpain-2 and caspase-8-associated protein, increased significantly. A terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated dUTP nicked end labeling study detected increased nuclear fragmentation in the 1,25-(OH)2D3-treated samples, confirming increased apoptosis. Together, these results suggest that sensitization of inflammatory cells to apoptotic signals may be one mechanism by which the 1,25-(OH)2D3 resolved EAE.


IL-10 signaling is essential for 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3-mediated inhibition of experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis.
J Immunol. 2006 Nov 1;177(9):6030-7.
    Multiple sclerosis (MS) results from an aberrant, neuroantigen-specific, T cell-mediated autoimmune response. Because MS prevalence and severity decrease sharply with increasing sunlight exposure, and sunlight supports vitamin D(3) synthesis, we proposed that vitamin D(3) and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (1,25-(OH)(2)D(3)) may protect against MS. In support of this hypothesis, 1,25-(OH)(2)D(3) strongly inhibited experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE). This inhibition required lymphocytes other than the encephalitogenic T cells. In this study, we tested the hypothesis that 1,25-(OH)(2)D(3) might inhibit EAE through the action of IL-10-producing regulatory lymphocytes. We report that vitamin D(3) and 1,25-(OH)(2)D(3) strongly inhibited myelin oligodendrocyte peptide (MOG(35-55))-induced EAE in C57BL/6 mice, but completely failed to inhibit EAE in mice with a disrupted IL-10 or IL-10R gene. Thus, a functional IL-10-IL-10R pathway was essential for 1,25-(OH)(2)D(3) to inhibit EAE. The 1,25-(OH)(2)D(3) also failed to inhibit EAE in reciprocal, mixed bone marrow chimeras constructed by transferring IL-10-deficient bone marrow into irradiated wild-type mice and vice versa. Thus, 1,25-(OH)(2)D(3) may be enhancing an anti-inflammatory loop involving hemopoietic cell-produced IL-10 acting on brain parenchymal cells and vice versa. If this interpretation is correct, and humans have a similar bidirectional IL-10-dependent loop, then an IL-10-IL-10R pathway defect could abrogate the anti-inflammatory and neuro-protective functions of sunlight and vitamin D(3). In this way, a genetic IL-10-IL-10R pathway defect could interact with an environmental risk factor, vitamin D(3) insufficiency, to increase MS risk and severity.

NHE
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Vitamin D dramatically cuts cancer risk: study

Postby beyondms » Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:49 am

More positive news for vitamin D....


Vitamin D dramatically cuts cancer risk: study

CTV.ca News Staff

Updated: Thu. Jun. 7 2007 10:54 PM ET

A landmark new study is raising the tantalizing spectre that a simple and cheap vitamin supplement may offer a highly effective way of preventing cancer.

The research, published in the online edition of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, finds that a combination of vitamin D3 and calcium has a substantially marked effect on reducing cancer incidence.

The four-year study out of Creighton University in Nebraska found that women who regularly took vitamin D3 had a 60 per cent reduction in cancer infections compared to a group taking placebos.

The study followed 1,179 healthy, women 55 years and older from rural eastern Nebraska between 2000 and 2005. Participants were randomly assigned to receive 1400-1500 mg of calcium alone, or supplemental calcium plus 1,100 IU vitamin D3, or placebo.

The researchers studied only vitamin D3, which comes from animal sources and seems to be more active than vitamin D2, which is derived from plant sources.

Among the 288 women taking placebo, 20 developed breast, colon, lung or another form of cancer. Among the 445 women taking just calcium, 17 developed cancer. But among the largest group -- the 446 women taking vitamin D daily -- just 13 developed cancer.

"What we found is that a vitamin D supplement decreased the cancer incidence in postmenopausal women by about 60 per cent," lead investigator Joan Lappe, an associate professor of both medicine and nursing at Creighton University, told CTV News.

On the premise that some of the women who did develop cancer may have entered the study with undiagnosed cancers, researchers then eliminated the first-year results and looked at the last three years of the study. When they did that, the results became even more dramatic with the calcium/vitamin D3 group showing a startling 77 per cent cancer-risk reduction.

"The findings are very exciting. They confirm what a number of vitamin D proponents have suspected for some time but that, until now, have not been substantiated through clinical trial," said Lappe.

"Vitamin D is a critical tool in fighting cancer as well as many other diseases."

While the study was open to all ethnic groups, all participants were Caucasian, she noted. Lappe said further studies are needed to determine whether the results apply to different ethnic groups, to men, and to women of all ages.

This is not the first time that researchers have noted the health benefits of vitamin D. In February, two studies found that the vitamin was linked to lower rates of breast cancer and colorectal cancer. The "sunshine vitamin," as it's sometimes called, has also been shown to kill some cancer cells in laboratory experiments.

"There's a lot of evidence out there that populations in first world countries are deficient in vitamin D and if you give them more, we can prevent cancers and other diseases that have been reported to be prevented with vitamin D," said Lappe.

Humans can absorb vitamin D when ultraviolet rays from the sun trigger vitamin D synthesis in our skin. But because of our short summers in Canada and our latitude, most Canadians don't get anywhere near enough of it all year long.

That's why Dr. Reinhold Vieth, who has conducted numerous studies of vitamin D at Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital, believes every Canadian could benefit from taking a vitamin D supplement.

"The vitamin D story is what I call a 'no-lose' proposition. Take it. You can only win," he told CTV News.

Cancer Society recommends vitamin D supplementation

Because of the growing body of evidence about vitamin D, for the first time, the Canadian Cancer Society is recommending a specific amount of supplementation for Canadians to consider taking. The Society is now recommending that:

* Adults living in Canada should consider taking vitamin D supplementation of 1,000 international units (IU) a day during the fall and winter.
* Adults at higher risk of having lower vitamin D levels should consider taking vitamin D supplementation of 1,000 IU/day all year round. This includes people who are older; with dark skin; who don't go outside often, and who wear clothing that covers most of their skin.
* At this time, the Canadian Cancer Society does not have a recommendation for vitamin D supplementation for children.

"The evidence is still growing in this area, but we want to give guidance to Canadians about this emerging area of cancer prevention based on what we know now," said Heather Logan, director of Cancer Control Policy with the Canadian Cancer Society.

"We're recommending 1,000 IUs daily because the current evidence suggests this amount will help reduce cancer risk with the least potential for harm," said Logan.

"As we find out more we will update our recommendation."

Logan cautions Canadians about relying too much on getting vitamin D through exposure to sunlight.

"It's not a good idea to rely solely on the sun to obtain vitamin D," said Logan. "For some people, it's possible that just a few minutes of unprotected sun exposure every day could increase skin cancer risk."

The Cancer Society is not changing its SunSense guidelines, as skin cancer is the most frequently diagnosed cancer in Canada.

The Society recommends that people reduce their exposure to the sun, particularly between 11 a.m. and 4 p.m. when the sun's rays are the strongest. And use a sunscreen with a sun protection factor (SPF) 15 or higher and SPF 30 if you work outdoors or if you will be outside for most of the day.

With a report from CTV medical specialist Avis Favaro and medical producer Elizabeth St. Philip
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Vit D

Postby bromley » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:10 am

Study shines light on possible MS cause 15 June 2007

SLIP, slop, slapping to avoid skin cancer could be exposing people to increased risk of multiple sclerosis.

Researchers believe rising rates of MS could be linked to reduced levels of vitamin D, which is produced in the body by sunlight.

About 18,000 Australians are thought to have MS, where the body's killer T cells attack the protective myelin sheath around nerve fibres in the brain.

The disease usually strikes people aged in the 20s and 30s, progressively breaking down functions like mobility and eyesight or hitting in unpredictable bursts punctuated by temporary remissions.

MS Research Australia executive director Jeremy Wright said the number of MS cases was jumping by about six or seven per cent each year.

"We're seeing up to 1000 new cases every year, and that is now outpacing the rate of population growth," he said.

Mr Wright said it was unclear what was behind the rise, but there was growing evidence of a link to sunlight and vitamin D.

He said research showed the further people lived from the equator, the greater the rate of MS.

Mr Wright said Victoria's MS rate was four to five times higher than that of Queensland.

He said Victorians needed 10 to 15 minutes of sunlight exposure two to three days a week to give them adequate vitamin D levels.

"One theory is maybe we've gone a bit over the top with the slip, slop, slap campaign," Mr Wright said.

He said another favoured theory was that our increasingly hygienic environments meant our immune systems did not develop properly.

"Our children have less exposure to nasty things that might give them diseases and excite the immune system into action early in life," Mr Wright said.

"If you don't use your immune system early, it doesn't learn how to become strong against other diseases later."

Mr Wright said research promised major breakthroughs in MS.

He said new drugs that could dramatically reduce the number of attacks suffered by people with the relapse-remitting form of the disease were being tested and could be on the market within five years.

Other researchers, including at Melbourne and Monash universities, were making advances in the repair of damaged cells that made up the myelin sheath.

Source: News.com.au Copyright 2007 News Limited. (15/06/07)
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Postby robbie » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:34 am

It seems funny to read an article like this where there is a vitamin that is considered a possible cause of ms and yet people are risking their lives with drugs that could bring down a horse to stop their RRMS. If i was one of those people any talk of a goddam vitamin being the cause of such a complex disease would scare me.
Had ms for over 19 years now.
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Postby carolew » Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:05 am

I have had soooooo much exposure to the sun, unprotected, in the past and I STILL have MS. This theory never made sense to me. Quite the opposite, I thought I had fried my brain with so much sunbathing and tennis. :) Carole
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Postby Nick » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:59 am

bromley, I find this article incredulous not because of the vitamin D and MS association but rather from the apparent ignorance of the MS Research Australia executive director Jeremy Wright. Granted his comments might have been taken out of context or abbreviated but there are few issues that I'd like to point out.

The author made no allusion to previous research out of Australia (van der Mai et al 2001) which found a stronger association between MS prevalence and the inverse of ultra violet radiation than the relationship between skin cancer and UVR. This not a moot point as the thrust of the article was how the Aussie campaign to reduce skin cancer appears to be raising the incidence and prevalence of MS there.

The director is quoted to have said

research promised major breakthroughs in MS.

He said new drugs that could dramatically reduce the number of attacks suffered by people with the relapse-remitting form of the disease were being tested and could be on the market within five years.


WTF? On one hand he is commenting on how vitamin D is a probable reason for influencing MS and then goes on to say new drugs could be available in five years.

How about recommending people with MS take 4,000 IU/d beginning today, to induce immunomodulation now!

Unfortunately this mindset is pervasive in the conventional, drug based world which dictates the practices of the MS Societies yet I don't think this is in the best interests of the supposed client base of the MS Society.

carolew, your bio indicates you reside in Canada. Unless you have taken previously unheard amounts of vitamin D supplements in winter or vacationed regularly to a tropical clime in winter, I can safely assume you have been vitamin D deficient for substantial portions of your life while in Canada.

Your degree of disability or age of symptom onset though could be correlated to your pattern of sun exposure in summer in Canada. It is necessary to consider that the active hormonal form of vitamin D in your body takes a month or so to form after UVR exposure or from pill format ingestion and the hormone only says in your body for a month or so before it degrades. The graph in this paper demonstrates nicely the relationship between seasonal vitamin D levels and lesion activity.

robbie, I don't think vitamin D is considered a cause per se of MS but rather an intrinsic element to the disease process. However, I feel it is such a significant protective factor that MS can be considered a disease of latent vitamin D deficiency. Of course we at DIRECT-MS feel dietary proteins in predisposed individuals are the driving instigators of MS.

I also think that many cancers will eventually be thought of diseases of latent vitamin D deficiency too considering the significant influence it has in cellular differentiation. See this post in this forum for an article on vitamin D's substantial effect on cancer prevention.

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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:39 pm

nick that is interesting. which dietary proteins are suspect?
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Postby Nick » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:22 pm

jimmylegs wrote:nick that is interesting. which dietary proteins are suspect?


jl

The foods with the potential to precipitate autoimmunity in predisposed individuals are cow's milk, gluten, legumes, yeast and eggs. It's not such a stretch to conceive of food proteins being able to do this as celiac disease is a well defined autoimmune disease in which the body's immune system is unable to differentiate between a food antigen (gluten/gliadin) and self tissue(endomysium) so it attcks both.

This case of mimicry has been identified in MS in a few studies already. This study by Winer et al in 2001 that found striking similarities between IDDM and MS. In essence, the two diseases are, in a test tube, virtually identical. It’s only their final expression of what self tissue is attacked which differs.
It compliments the research by Guggenmos et al by showing mimicry between self tissue and dietary proteins. It strongly implicates dairy as a causal element in MS and very strongly implicates dairy as a causal element in type 1 diabetes.

This study by Winer et al in 2001 that found striking similarities between IDDM and MS. In essence, the two diseases are, in a test tube, virtually identical. It’s only their final expression of what self tissue is attacked which differs.

This relationship is important to recognise because children with neurological autoimmune diseases develop immune reactions to other targets in their bodies and in food early in their disease, according to research that was presented at the American Academy of Neurology 58th Annual Meeting in San Diego, Calif., April 1 - 8, 2006.

T cells are the body's regulators of the immune response. Increased T cell proliferation is a characteristic of autoimmune disease, in which the immune system attacks body tissues. However, it wasn't known whether this increased proliferation occurred early, or as a result of chronic autoimmunity, said lead researcher Brenda Banwell, MD, from the Department of Pediatric Neurology at the Hospital for Sick Children in Ontario, Canada.

The researchers studied 166 children: 63 with an autoimmune demyelinating syndrome (either multiple sclerosis or an isolated event of central nervous system autoimmunity), 43 with type I diabetes (also an autoimmune disease), 31 with a non-autoimmune neurological condition, and 30 healthy controls. They examined blood samples for T cell proliferation in response to exposure to a variety of antigens (targets), including myelin protein from nerve cells, proteins in the pancreas, and proteins in milk.

As expected, more children with central nervous system autoimmunity had T cell proliferation after exposure to myelin than control children (50 percent versus 10 percent). About a quarter of these children also showed a response to proinsulin, a T-cell target in type I diabetes. Over sixty percent also responded to a protein in milk. Ninety percent of the children with type I diabetes responded to pancreatic antigens as expected, but almost as many (79 percent) responded to myelin, and 90 percent responded to milk protein.

Even at the onset of their disease, children with autoimmune diseases harbor T cells that will react against proteins within their tissues, Banwell said. The responses seen against milk proteins raise the possibility that substances in food may be associated with autoimmunity.

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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:15 am

thanks for all that nick. so are you saying that some people need more vitamin d supplementation than others in order to help their immune system put the brakes on the self-tissue issues?
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Postby jimmylegs » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:56 pm

i like this kind of article, kind of takes the pressure off one supplement when you consider all the interrelationships and variables.

Med Hypotheses. 2001 Feb;56(2):163-70. Links
The multifaceted and widespread pathology of magnesium deficiency.Johnson S.
sjohnson@qwksilvr.com

Even though Mg is by far the least abundant serum electrolyte, it is extremely important for the metabolism of Ca, K, P, Zn, Cu, Fe, Na, Pb, Cd, HCl, acetylcholine, and nitric oxide (NO), for many enzymes, for the intracellular homeostasis and for activation of thiamine and therefore, for a very wide gamut of crucial body functions. Unfortunately, Mg absorption and elimination depend on a very large number of variables, at least one of which often goes awry, leading to a Mg deficiency that can present with many signs and symptoms. Mg absorption requires plenty of Mg in the diet, Se, parathyroid hormone (PTH) and vitamins B6 and D. Furthermore, it is hindered by excess fat. On the other hand, Mg levels are decreased by excess ethanol, salt, phosphoric acid (sodas) and coffee intake, by profuse sweating, by intense, prolonged stress, by excessive menstruation and vaginal flux, by diuretics and other drugs and by certain parasites (pinworms). The very small probability that all the variables affecting Mg levels will behave favorably, results in a high probability of a gradually intensifying Mg deficiency. It is highly regrettable that the deficiency of such an inexpensive, low-toxicity nutrient result in diseases that cause incalculable suffering and expense throughout the world. The range of pathologies associated with Mg deficiency is staggering: hypertension (cardiovascular disease, kidney and liver damage, etc.), peroxynitrite damage (migraine, multiple sclerosis, glaucoma, Alzheimer's disease, etc.), recurrent bacterial infection due to low levels of nitric oxide in the cavities (sinuses, vagina, middle ear, lungs, throat, etc.), fungal infections due to a depressed immune system, thiamine deactivation (low gastric acid, behavioral disorders, etc.), premenstrual syndrome, Ca deficiency (osteoporosis, hypertension, mood swings, etc.), tooth cavities, hearing loss, diabetes type II, cramps, muscle weakness, impotence (lack of NO), aggression (lack of NO), fibromas, K deficiency (arrhythmia, hypertension, some forms of cancer), Fe accumulation, etc. Finally, because there are so many variables involved in the Mg metabolism, evaluating the effect of Mg in many diseases has frustrated many researchers who have simply tried supplementation with Mg, without undertaking the task of ensuring its absorption and preventing excessive elimination, rendering the study of Mg deficiency much more difficult than for most other nutrients.
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Postby Nick » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:29 pm

jimmylegs wrote:thanks for all that nick. so are you saying that some people need more vitamin d supplementation than others in order to help their immune system put the brakes on the self-tissue issues?


Jim

I feel that every adult who has an autoimmune disease or suspects a predisposition yet is not dx'd should have an intenal concentration of 25 hydroxyvitamin D > 100nmol/L (ideally 125 nmol/L). If you don't have concerns about coping with or preventing an autoimmune disease that it not critical.

From what is known now this serum concentration is considered optimal because the data we have now implies that is what best modulates the immune system. This internal concentation is achieved from an intake of approximatel 4,000 IU/d (or the equivalent of ultraviolet radiation exposure)depending on the individual. It is estimated that adults use 4,000 IU/d in normal physiological fuctioning.

Because vitamin D3 deficiency is so stongly linked to cancer prevalence, I think everybody, regardless of autoimmune concerns, has the same daily intake of 4,000 IU/d (or the equivalent in UVR) until future research indicates taking more (or less) will yield better results. Maybe a person already with cancer would benefit from more but this has't, to my knowledge, yet been demonstrated.

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Postby jimmylegs » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:41 am

hi nick, when i first asked for a D3 test i had been supplementing for a few months, and for the last few weeks it had been at 4000 per day. so i never knew my real baseline number, but at that point i got tested and i was only at 72!

after that, i went for 150 nmol/L by taking 50,000 per day for ten days, divided into two 25,000 doses (i couldn't make it any smaller at that concentration, or i would have done 10,000 at a time). i got to 149 which was great. last year i stopped supplementing because i was working outside in australian late spring, and then i went a while without supplements even when i got back to canadian winter, so that i could get a clean baseline test, but i waited too long and my level was down to 80.

i'm back on 4000 a day because i'm not really getting out in the sun so far this summer, only a few hours so far. and i'm not perfect about taking my supps every day. but i need to have another test to see if i'm at least back up to 100 at a minimum.

i have this cal mag d3 pill that has 1000 units in it, plus an additional 3000 in little d3 pills. should i just be taking four of the big cal mag d3s you think, to get the right balance?
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Postby Nick » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:37 pm

jimmylegs wrote:hi nick, when i first asked for a D3 test i had been supplementing for a few months, and for the last few weeks it had been at 4000 per day. so i never knew my real baseline number, but at that point i got tested and i was only at 72!

after that, i went for 150 nmol/L by taking 50,000 per day for ten days, divided into two 25,000 doses (i couldn't make it any smaller at that concentration, or i would have done 10,000 at a time). i got to 149 which was great. last year i stopped supplementing because i was working outside in australian late spring, and then i went a while without supplements even when i got back to canadian winter, so that i could get a clean baseline test, but i waited too long and my level was down to 80.

i'm back on 4000 a day because i'm not really getting out in the sun so far this summer, only a few hours so far. and i'm not perfect about taking my supps every day. but i need to have another test to see if i'm at least back up to 100 at a minimum.

i have this cal mag d3 pill that has 1000 units in it, plus an additional 3000 in little d3 pills. should i just be taking four of the big cal mag d3s you think, to get the right balance?


J

You haven't said what the CaMg amount is in the pill. Without knowing more I'd speculate that 4,000 IU/d of D3 and Calcium – 1000 to 1200 mg/d and Magnesium – 500 to 600 mg/d is desireable.

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Postby jimmylegs » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:47 pm

hi there, i've had the feeling that the ratio is right in the cal mag d3 pills, but i've been dumping in an extra 3000 d3, which i should probably stop doing i suppose, thanks
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