all things vitamin D

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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby CaveMan » Fri May 17, 2013 9:51 pm

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but thought it worth a mention.
I saw this video recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF24xmJQK1k
The speaker is a neurologist, whose work led her into sleep disorders and then she discovered a connection to Vitamin D levels.
her hypothesis is basically that Vitamin D deficiency results in sleep disorders which then predisposes the body to a variety of chronic conditions.
It is well known that sleep is the primary time for growth, repair and healing and if sleep is disturbed, even if one doesn't actually wake up, then this process is halted and there is then a situation of cumulative degeneration of the body's health status.
This begins to make much more sense when you consider that Vitamin D is more of a Hormone and not a Vitamin and has receptors throughout the body and brain that have nothing to do with calcium homeostasis, and with that then one needs to consider what the optimum Vitamin D levels are in relation to being a regulatory hormone.
The theory is that it is a crucial seasonal regulator adjusting both our metabolism and breeding behaviours in relation to available UVB, so in summer levels are elevated and we eat more work harder and sleep less, whereas in winter there is a downregulation and the situation is reversed in order to conserve energy and match metabolism to food supply. With chronic populationwide deficiencies, sociotally enforced through "Sun Phobia" everyone is living in a "perpetual winter" and the association with chronic diseases of all sorts is easily explained by this situation.
It is not that vitamin D deficiency causes any of these conditions, it just contributes to the poor environment which allows any genetic predisposition or weakness to manifest.
Below are some of the links I have looked at, but I would highly reccomend that anyone interested take the time to watch the above video, it is not specifically MS, although she does mention MS towards the end, I do think it has significant relevance.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/pro ... -his-time/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0X94900353
http://www.direct-ms.org/sites/default/ ... Immune.PDF
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1804001176
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1804001176
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby CaliReader » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:42 pm

Here is something to consider re vit D supplementation.
I supplement at 4000 to 6000 iu/ day. I had to stop supplementing calcium with it
and start taking more magnesium because I was getting pain in my arms and legs.
Apparently hypercalcemia, too much calcium, is something to manage if you
use high dose vitamin D. Vitamin D is clearly a good thing, but not without risks.
If anyone has more sophisticated thoughts on how to manage it, I would love to hear them.

Severe hypercalcemia following vitamin d supplementation in a patient with multiple sclerosis: a note of caution.
Marcus JF, Shalev SM, Harris CA, Goodin DS, Josephson SA.
Source
Department of Neurology, University of California, San Francisco, 350 Parnassus Ave, 908, PO Box 0114, San Francisco, CA 94143, USA. Jacqueline.marcus@ucsf.edu
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
To describe a patient with multiple sclerosis (MS) who developed severe hypercalcemia, attributed to the additive effect of 5500 IU of cholecalciferol and 2020 mg of calcium daily.
DESIGN:
Case report.
SETTING:
University hospital.
PATIENT:
A 58-year-old woman with MS and osteoporosis presenting with acute-onset tremors and confusion.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Serum calcium and 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels.
RESULTS:
The patient's corrected serum calcium level was 15.2 mg/dL (reference range, 8.7-10.1 mg/dL; to convert to millimoles per liter, multiply by 0.25), and her 25-hydroxyvitamin D level was 103 ng/mL (to convert to nanomoles per liter, multiply by 2.496). The results of extensive laboratory tests to rule out hyperparathyroidism, malignant neoplasms, and other causes of hypercalcemia were unrevealing.
CONCLUSIONS:
It is common practice to prescribe high-dose cholecalciferol to MS patients for its possible role in immunomodulation and relapse-rate reduction. Nevertheless, cholecalciferol may increase serum calcium, and there seems to be an additive effect when patients simultaneously use calcium supplements. This case underscores the need for physicians to be attentive to the possibility of hypercalcemia in patients treated with both high-dose cholecalciferol and calcium.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:18 pm

I can't take calcium with vit d, I get enough in diet and I found supplementing gave me an ache, I can only assume in my kidneys...? I've had a very bad time in the past by driving down magnesium levels through excess d3 supplementation.
monitoring serum levels of nutrients while supplementing is how I like to approach the issue. I don't often test calcium but when I have, it's been fine. I do have to make an effort where magnesium is concerned.
my 'key nutrients' post (see address below) has all the details on how I deal with balancing nutrition for ms.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby CaliReader » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:03 pm

Jimmylegs, no doubt.

Supplementing magnesium and cutting calcium has seemed to work for me too. I'm still taking D3. I'm less precise about measuring than you are, for lack of a friendly lab. But I hadn't heard of this issue before.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:13 am

yea the vit d3 push is so new to the mainstream that it probably will take a while for the mineral balancing piece to get into the messaging too. how long have we been hearing about calcium calcium calcium with relative silence on the magnesium front, ages..
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Squeakycat » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:02 pm

Hmmm. Just discovered this separate thread on Vitamin D. Oh dear.

I've just added a new note on the recent study showing that vitamin D3 plus calcitriol is 100% effective in reversing EAE in mice and causing what appears to be complete remission.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby grandsons4 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:49 pm

Squeakycat, hi: I've been following your posts on vitamin D (particularly D3 + calcitriol) and also researching it on my own on behalf of my adult son who was diagnosed with MS. In concert with my advice, his own research has led him to forego DMD's for the present (10 months, now) and self-treat with diet and supplementation, the only non-"natural" product being LDN. He has been feeling relatively well, working part-time and handling housework and parenting (2 young boys) quite well. Partly on his suspicions and partly in an attempt to cover all the bases, he had his blood tested for Lyme by Igenex. Just today he received word from his doctor that the tests done by Igenex show numerous bands highly indicative of Lyme, and that in his opinion (the doctor's), leave no doubt my son has Lyme disease. My thinking is that (if this doctor is amenable, and no harm would come from a short delay in the standard antibiotic treatment) treatment with the "one dose calcitriol and followup D3 supplementation" protocol should be considered. Two questions: 1.) Have you established any dosage levels at this time? 2.) My research has led me to conclude that vitamin K2 is integral to the proper interplay of calcium and vitamin D. Have you looked into this?
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Squeakycat » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:58 pm

grandsons4 wrote:Just today he received word from his doctor that the tests done by Igenex show numerous bands highly indicative of Lyme, and that in his opinion (the doctor's), leave no doubt my son has Lyme disease. My thinking is that (if this doctor is amenable, and no harm would come from a short delay in the standard antibiotic treatment) treatment with the "one dose calcitriol and followup D3 supplementation" protocol should be considered. Two questions: 1.) Have you established any dosage levels at this time? 2.) My research has led me to conclude that vitamin K2 is integral to the proper interplay of calcium and vitamin D. Have you looked into this?
I know nothing about K2.

I also don't know that calcitriol + vitamin D3 would have any effect in Lyme's disease. I would be inclined to follow doctor's advice and treat that with antibiotics and not do anything else that might interfere with the treatment.

Of course, it would never hurt and might help to ensure adequate levels of vitamin D, 25(OH)D.

But I have no expertise in this area. I know nothing of Lyme's disease other than that it is hard to detect and often mimics neurological symptoms that are very similar to MS.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby grandsons4 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:11 pm

Considering the etiology of "MS" is unknown, perhaps Lyme, among other diseases, is MS. Note: my son's D level at onset was below the normal range.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Squeakycat » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:54 pm

grandsons4 wrote:Considering the etiology of "MS" is unknown, perhaps Lyme, among other diseases, is MS. Note: my son's D level at onset was below the normal range.
It's not unknown to me. :>)

If you have a breach of the blood brain barrier cause by any number of possible agents, you then have an immune response which looks like MS. Perhaps the immune response is overly aggressive. Perhaps parts of the immune system cross the BBB and attack things they shouldn't, but if the root problem is the breach of the BBB, then the etiology explains all the different actors that have been assumed to be the "cause" of MS: bacteria, virus, mechanical damage from turbulent blood flow as posited by CCSVI.

From that perspective, Lyme's Disease could certainly be one of the causes, but I doubt it is the only cause, or even a common one in spite of the occasional misdiagnosis that labels a Lyme infection MS.

In this context, vitamin D is critical for two reasons: 1) The first is that it is the hormone responsible for maintaining the integrity of endothelial tissue that constitutes the BBB, and 2) It manages the local, adaptive immune system response.

The reason I would still approach this in terms of treating the Lyme's is that you have to deal with this underlying cause of the problem. Vitamin D is not going to remove Lyme's. It will help with the repair of a broken BBB, but that will be an ongoing problem if you don't deal with the cause of this breach of the BBB.

And finally, no one has studied this so we have no real guidance on what levels of calcitriol or vitamin D are needed to deal with a problem involving Lyme's disease. We do have a basis for addressing the Lyme's infection so to me, that should be the focus.

But as I said earlier, it also makes sense to maintain adequate levels of vitamin D. And not smoke, eat junk food, drink excessively, exercise and so on. All of those things will contribute to maintaining good health, but you need a direct attack on the Lyme's bacteria to get rid of it.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby grandsons4 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:28 pm

I also doubt it is the only cause; in fact, I believe EBV to be the most likely culprit, either acting alone in concert with certain genetic predispositions or allying with HERV's and acting in concert with genetic predispositions. Considering that "one calcitriol dose plus vitamin D sustainably reversed demyelinating disease," MS with what etiology would be treatable with one does calcitriol?
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Squeakycat » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:39 am

grandsons4 wrote:I also doubt it is the only cause; in fact, I believe EBV to be the most likely culprit, either acting alone in concert with certain genetic predispositions or allying with HERV's and acting in concert with genetic predispositions. Considering that "one calcitriol dose plus vitamin D sustainably reversed demyelinating disease," MS with what etiology would be treatable with one dose of calcitriol?
Good question. I don't know the answer.

It may well be that the reason things work in EAE and don't in MS is that EAE is one disease with one origin and MS has many etiologies and only the one that is most similar to EAE will benefit from a treatment that most closely mimics it.

The point I was making, however, is that a "cure" likely depends on eliminating the agent that is causing the problem, in your son's case, Lyme's. The calcitriol + Vitamin D3 likely treats the result of injury to the endothelium, not the cause of it.

At this point, we don't know if this will have any benefit in MS, or, if it does, MS of which etiology?
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby euphoniaa » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:26 am

Squeakycat wrote:Hmmm. Just discovered this separate thread on Vitamin D. Oh dear.

Hi Squeakycat,

Since Vitamin D is a hot topic in MS (and elsewhere) these days, I thought I'd stop in to give a thread navigation hint for you and others who may have just discovered this Vitamin D thread. Unlike the single topic Vit D conversation you've been participating in on the CCSVI forum ("Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS"), this Vitamin D thread was created about 1-1/2 years ago by combining every separate-topic thread/post that alluded to Vit D (among other topics) into one single thread. Same thing happened to the other stickies in Natural Approach.

So, if you decide to scroll through pages 1-62, you may be able to find some conversations by hopping around the thread and noting the "Post Subject" at the top of each post to follow the posts of a particular conversation. The post one is reading is not necessarily a reply to -- or even relevant to -- the post that directly precedes it. But alas, most have no heading at all.

There's lots of information here -- you just have to dig for it. Just a helpful heads up. :smile:
Dx'd with MS & HNPP (hereditary peripheral neuropathy) 7/03 but must have had MS for 30 yrs before that. I've never taken meds for MS except 1 yr experiment on LDN. (I found diet, exercise, sleep, humor, music help me the most.)
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby dez2000 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:11 pm

I hope that you are taking all vitamins and minerals as they work much better together. See my post to jimmy legs dez2000
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby dez2000 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:42 pm

Very good information on the powerful effects of vitamin D on many health problems.

Some time ago, a very surprising,interesting and informative search I did,
‘cancer oxygen’ where I first saw the phrase: ‘If you are breathing, you can get healthy’. …dez...
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