zinc and MS

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Postby jimmylegs » Thu May 05, 2011 3:17 pm

hey there, first find out what your serum zinc is and then we can worry about daily intakes and toxicity! yes just ask the GP for a test. i'd be interested to see where you're at given the daily supp at 18mg.

if they want you to provide justification for requesting the test i can fire you a link with abstracts, it's around here somewhere i posted it for mirry to take to her doc back in 2010. he was impressed!
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Advertisement

Postby HunnyBunny » Thu May 05, 2011 6:33 pm

Thanks so much, I have an appt already with my GP for Monday so I'll ask then to get it done. And once I have the results, I'll post and we can discuss!

Thx again, and as always, wishing you well!
User avatar
HunnyBunny
Family Member
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jackD » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:20 pm

User avatar
jackD
Family Elder
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 3:00 pm
Location: Near Wash DC

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:07 am

The effect of severe zinc deficiency on serum levels of albumin, transferrin, and prealbumin in man.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/34/9/1655.short
Abstract
Concentrations of three serum transport proteins, albumin, transferrin, and prealbumin, were determined in seven patients with severe zinc deficiency. Zinc deficiency was manifested not only by depressed serum zinc concentrations, but also by skin lesions typical of zinc deficiency that corrected with zinc supplementation only. Concentrations of all three serum proteins were significantly depressed in zinc-deficient patients compared to healthy controls, and levels of all three proteins improved or corrected with a short period of zinc supplementation as the sole form of therapeutic intervention. Prealbumin levels dropped and corrected most rapidly, probably due in part to its short half-life of 2 days. This study demonstrates that zinc plays an important role in protein metabolism in man and is necessary for the maintenance of normal levels of certain transport proteins. These results support the possibility that zinc deficiency may alter tissue availability of other nutrients such as vitamin A or iron through its effect on transport proteins.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:08 am

Zinc or Copper Deficiency-Induced Impaired Inflammatory Response to Brain Trauma May Be Caused by the Concomitant Metallothionein Changes
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10 ... LGO%2CJuan)
The role of zinc- and copper-deficient diets on the inflammatory response to traumatic brain injury (TBI) has been evaluated in adult rats. As expected, zinc deficiency decreased food intake and body weight gain, and the latter effect was higher than that observed in pair-fed rats. In noninjured brains, zinc deficiency only affected significantly lectin (increasing) and glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP) and Cu,Zn-superoxide dismutase (Cu,Zn-SOD) (decreasing) immunoreactivities (irs). In injured brains, a profound gliosis was observed in the area surrounding the lesion, along with severe damage to neurons as indicated by neuron specific enolase (NSE) ir, and the number of cells undergoing apoptosis (measured by TUNEL) was dramatically increased. Zinc deficiency significantly altered brain response to TBI, potentiating the microgliosis and reducing the astrogliosis, while increasing the number of apoptotic cells. Metallothioneins (MTs) are important zinc- and copper-binding proteins in the CNS, which could influence significantly the brain response to TBI because of their putative roles in metal homeostasis and antioxidant defenses. MT-I + II expression was dramatically increased by TBI, and this response was significantly blunted by zinc deficiency. The MT-III isoform was moderately increased by both TBI and zinc deficiency. TBI strongly increased oxidative stress levels, as demonstrated by malondialdehyde (MDA), protein tyrosine nitration (NITT), and nuclear factor κB (NF-κB) levels irs, all of which were potentiated by zinc deficiency. Further analysis revealed unbalanced expression of prooxidant and antioxidant proteins besides MT, since the levels of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) and Cu,Zn-SOD were increased and decreased, respectively, by zinc deficiency. All these effects were attributable to zinc deficiency, since pair-fed rats did not differ from normally fed rats. In general, copper deficiency caused a similar pattern of responses, albeit more moderate. Results obtained in mice with a null mutation for the MT-I + II isoforms strongly suggest that most of the effects observed in the rat brain after zinc and copper deficiencies are attributable to the concomitant changes in the MT expression.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby THX1138 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:11 pm

I am assuming that this thread is the equivalent of "All things Zinc".

Interaction among niacin, vitamin B6 and zinc in rats receiving ethanol. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3804611
THX1138
Family Elder
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:33 am

i had posted this elsewhere on the forum earlier, but decided it deserved mention here as well:

Oral zinc aspartate treats experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 014-9786-8
"The essential trace element zinc plays a critical role in the regulation of immune homeostasis. Zinc deficiency or excess can cause severe impairment of the immune response, which points to the importance of the physiological and dietary control of zinc levels for a functioning immune system. We previously reported that injection of zinc aspartate suppresses experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE), an animal model for multiple sclerosis (MS), as well as effector T cell functions in vitro. Among the preferred characteristics of novel therapeutics for the treatment of autoimmune diseases such as MS are oral availability and a tolerable effective dose to minimize side effects. In this study, we investigated whether oral administration of zinc aspartate, an approved drug to treat zinc deficiency in humans, is effective in controlling EAE at clinically approved doses. We show that oral administration of 6 µg/day [0.3 mg/kg body weight (BW)] or 12 µg/day [0.6 mg/kg BW] of zinc aspartate reduces clinical and histopathological signs during the relapsing remitting phase of the disease in SJL mice. The clinical effect in mice was accompanied by suppression of IFN-γ, TNF-α, GM-CSF and IL-5 production in stimulated human T cells and mouse splenocytes in a dose-dependent manner. Furthermore, a large array of proinflammatory cytokines was modulated by zinc aspartate exposure in vitro. These data suggest that administration of oral zinc aspartate may have beneficial effects on autoimmune diseases like MS."

so, if we take a closer look at that .6mg/kg dose, for a 180lb/80kg mouse ;) that would be about 50mg of zinc per day.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:48 am

cross posted from 'of iron and ms':

i have posted this study around the site a few times over the past year and a bit, but thought this info (elevated iron with low zinc and copper in MS patients) deserved a spot here as well.

Serum level of iron, zinc and copper in patients with multiple sclerosis
http://jmj.jums.ac.ir/~jumsjmj/files/si ... 0187b3.pdf
"Introduction:
Multiple sclerosis (MS) is one of the most common neurologic disorders. It appears that in addition to the common risk factors, there may be other factors, such as serum level of trace elements, which affect the development or course of the disease. The aim of this study was to evaluate the serum levels of iron, zinc and copper in patients with MS and compare them with the control group.
Materials and Methods:
In this study, serum levels of iron, zinc and copper were determined in 25 patients with MS and compared with those of 25 healthy individuals matched with age and sex. Data were analyzed in SPSS, version17 using statistical descriptive methods (mean- percentage, SD) and t-test
Results:
In this study, there were 9 males in the case and control groups and the rest were female. The mean age of the patients was 28 ± 3.44 years for men and 24 ± 2.55 years for women. Mean serum iron levels were significantly elevated in MS patients (127.04 ± 34.67) compared to these levels in the control group (103.95 ± 33.81). Mean serum zinc levels were significantly decreased in MS patients (10.92 ± 2.114) as compared to these levels in the control group (14.05 ± 3.2). Also, mean serum copper levels were significantly decreased in MS patients (88.58 ± 19.56) compared to the levels in the control group (110.37 ± 37.1).
Conclusion:
The findings of this study show that serum levels of Iron, Zinc and Copper in patients with MS are different from those in normal population."

needs units for starters :) but still interesting.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby WarmOutToday » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:43 pm

don't know if this means anything...

after a year of taking greater than 60 mg zinc picolinate a day, with almost no changes in labs, I switched to zinc lozenges @ 46 mg gluconate/citrate per day. I saw an almost immediate change in serum labs and the way I felt.

I am surprised. I thought picolinate was the good stuff? im really liking the lozenges.
WarmOutToday
Family Member
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:29 am

i personally have no xp with picolinate although i think i have seen in research that it's supposed to be good (also pretty sure that the one i use was not in that study's comparison however). I am curious whether taking 60mg zinc per day can impact your copper level when it doesn't affect your serum zinc level.

i've always had a good response to my zinc citrate.

glad the zinc gluconate/citrate lozenges are working. if you end up trying zinc citrate pills, please ensure that your chosen product is balanced with copper.

please check in when and if the lozenges start tasting bad. how long have you been on them so far? what, if i may ask, were your last two levels before and after start of lozenge routine?

glad to hear you're feeling a difference. i felt it in cognitive function. what benefits have you noticed?
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

2016 study Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:04 am

Zinc in Multiple Sclerosis: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis (2016)
http://asn.sagepub.com/content/8/3/1759 ... 1.abstract
"In the last 35 years, zinc (Zn) has been examined for its potential role in the disease multiple sclerosis (MS). This review gives an overview of the possible role of Zn in the pathogenesis of MS as well as a meta-analysis of studies having measured Zn in serum or plasma in patients with MS. Searching the databases PubMed and EMBASE as well as going through reference lists in included articles 24 studies were found measuring Zn in patients with MS. Of these, 13 met inclusion criteria and were included in the meta-analysis. The result of the meta-analysis shows a reduction in serum or plasma Zn levels in patients with MS with a 95% CI of [−3.66, −0.93] and a p value of .001 for the difference in Zn concentration in μM. One of six studies measuring cerebrospinal fluid, Zn levels found a significant increase in patients with MS with controls. The studies measuring whole blood and erythrocyte Zn levels found up to several times higher levels of Zn in patients with MS compared with healthy controls with decreasing levels during attacks in relapsing-remitting MS patients. Future studies measuring serum or plasma Zn are encouraged to analyze their data through homogenous MS patient subgroups on especially age, sex, and disease subtype since the difference in serum or plasma Zn in these subgroups have been found to be significantly different. It is hypothesized that local alterations of Zn may be actively involved in the pathogenesis of MS."

yep, maybe. hey what was that major nutritional differential dx for ms again? oh yeah vit b12:

The zinc content of whole blood, plasma, leukocytes and erythrocytes in the anemias (1949)
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/18129102
"In pernicious anemia [JL: ie b12 deficiency], unit values for erythrocytes were significantly elevated above normal. Under successful liver therapy there was a progressive fall in unit value which reached normal when the red blood cell count had risen to normal"

this suggests to me that yes ms patients have low serum zinc, and if you're worried about high erythrocyte zinc, have a look at b12 status too.

going back to the successful treatment mentioned above. i had to look up this 'liver therapy'. yup, injectable liver. oh hello, dr. klenner
http://www.townsendletter.com/Klenner/klenner4.htm

not that i ever took such stuff myself. but i did correct my lab-documented serum zinc and b12 deficiencies, among other things. not that my personal b12 issues were the pernicious sort.
just stupidly self-inflicted via excessively plant-based diet. i'm going to enjoy the venison-spinach-feta burgers on the menu for din-dins tomorrow nite :)
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

study: zinc regulates EAE immune function Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:43 am

Induction of regulatory T cells in Th1-/Th17-driven experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis by zinc administration
http://bit.ly/2gXK2b6
"Cumulatively, zinc supplementation seems to be capable to induce tolerance in unwanted immune reactions by increasing iTreg cells. This makes zinc a promising future tool for treating autoimmune diseases without suppressing the immune system."

does it seem weird to anyone else that they ran this test on EAE/mice? is it just money issues?? i don't have time to dig for full text atm but woulda been nice if they'd clarified whether the response occurred 'in a dose dependent manner' in the abstract. ah well another time.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:03 pm

omg srsly LMAO

Inhalational Alzheimer's disease: an unrecognized—and treatable—epidemic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4789584/

"Laboratory studies often, but not always, feature hypozincemia and/or a high copper:zinc ratio, and may also suggest adrenal fatigue with reduced pregnenolone, DHEA-S (dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate), and/or AM cortisol."
yea some references would be great so that we can see if we agree with your classification of 'not hypozincemia'

"Laboratory evaluation of CIRS reveals increases in C4a (complement component 4a), TGF- β1 (transforming growth factor beta-1), MMP9 (matrix metalloprotease 9), specific cytokines, and decreases in MSH (melanocyte-stimulating hormone), VEGF (vascular endothelial growth factor), and ADH (anti-diuretic hormone), as well as frequent hypercortisolemia, hypozincemia, and other abnormalities... Here I report that type 3 Alzheimer's disease is a phenotypic manifestation of CIRS. Both may present with cognitive decline that goes beyond a restricted amnestic presentation to include executive dysfunction and other deficits; as well as depression, hypozincemia, hypersensitivity to stress, and dysfunction of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis."

just so we're all on the same page here, note:
serum copper to zinc ratio (optimal 0.70–1.00) per http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 016-0720-5
(aside: i often flip it and think of serum zn:cu ~1.1 as a good target)

"Patient 1
This is a follow-up description of the first patient described in a previous report [4]. A 52-year-old woman presented with a two-year history of cognitive decline... serum copper 101mcg/dl, serum zinc 56mcg/dl, and Cu:Zn ratio 1.8."
and, done. at least double serum zinc to get that cu:zn ratio under 1.0, 101/112 = 0.9, NEXT!

"Patient 2
This is a follow-up description of the second patient described in a previous report [4]. A 59-year-old man began to note word-finding difficulties, followed by difficulties with arithmetic... serum copper 97mcg/dl, serum zinc 59mcg/dl, Cu:Zn ratio 1.6"
k got it, double zinc and push copper to 110 to achieve optimal cu:zn ratio, 110/118 = 0.93, NEXT!

Patient 3, no zinc data? tsk tsk tsk.

"Patient 4
A 54-year-old man developed depression after 70% of his company's employees were laid off. He was treated with an antidepressant, and three years later began to have difficulty understanding the difference between left-turn lanes, failing to appreciate the difference between the more acute left turn (far left lane) and the more gentle left turn (second lane from the left), leading to lane crosses and near accidents. He then developed executive, visuospatial, and memory deficits ... zinc 78mcg/dl, copper 73mcg/dl"

ok we'll calculate the cu:zn ratio :roll: 0.94
this can be the example of when ratios may not be considered in isolation. i can relate to this guy's driving and visuospatial challenges. why yes, that *would* be from when i was zinc deficient this case probably looks like 'not hypozincemia' with that fancy 78 mcg/dl lol. pretty much circling the drain however.
now let's get out of the bottom end of the magical 'normal' range, put copper to 110, zinc to 120, and call us in the morning.

"Patient 5
A 50-year-old woman experienced depression following a hysterectomy, despite hormone-replacement therapy (although resulting hormone levels were not determined, so it is unknown whether optimal levels were achieved). Four years later she began to have word-finding difficulty, disorientation, difficulty driving, difficulty following recipes and other instructions, and increased depression following her son's leaving home... zinc 82mcg/l, copper 99mcg/l, copper:zinc ratio 1.2"

erm, we mean mcg/dl i hope :P :roll:
assuming yes, once again let's push that zinc up closer to 120mcg/dl, copper up to 110mcg/dl, and see where you are
(hint: cu:zn ratio will be 0.92, zn:cu ratio will be 1.1)

"Patient 6
A 54-year-old woman began to have difficulty driving at night, followed by difficulty writing numbers, along with exhaustion. This was initially ascribed to menopause. [ :-x ] She was unable to complete her work in a timely fashion, and had to check her work many times over because of a propensity to make mistakes, all of which was highly unusual for her..."

helloooo bloods pls?

"Patient 7
A 64-year-old man began to complain of headache, leg cramps, irritability, distractibility, and difficulty with memory. Evaluation noted in addition a peripheral neuropathy and hyposmia. Neuro-psychological assessment revealed a high-functioning individual with mild reductions in spatial > verbal memory... serum copper 97mcg/dl, serum zinc 57mcg/dl, copper:zinc ratio 1.7."

1.7?!! no, no, NO! double the zinc, gives you 0.85 serum cu:zn ratio, :yawn:

OK so now you'll interpret your data, whaddaya got..

"These findings suggest that patients with presentations compatible with type 3 Alzheimer's disease should be evaluated for CIRS (as well as other toxic exposures, such as mercury and copper)." OMG KMN

no hits for zinc in the ENTIRE discussion. just sayin, this study never gets published in jimmylegs' alternate universe.

sweet jeebus i'm within a decade of the age of some of these ppl. glad i figured this stuff out long before having a chance of getting chucked into the mainstream alzheimer's management machine wow.
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby NHE » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:41 pm

I just checked my lab's reference range for serum Zn: 56−134 μg/dL.


:roll:
User avatar
NHE
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 4352
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:00 pm

Re: zinc and MS

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:58 am

ouch, that is brutal!!! another unfortunately typical case of 'regional differences to suit the population served'.
yet another example from a few yrs back (10-20 or 65-131):
introductions-f20/topic18451.html#p180854

re that 134 at the top end - wonder what serum copper was looking like for that person. esp given where zinc toxicity levels start in the examples below :S
and as for that 56. that's 8.6 umol/L at the bottom end; exactly my deficient result from way back. if my lab hadn't been using 11.5-18.5 (75-120) and flagged my result as a deficiency, i don't know where i would be right now. i almost lost my drivers license as it was.

when my zinc was that low, i couldn't budge uric acid north of 194 umol/L (the exact average ua in ms patients) and i had tried for years (via food - what a disaster). doc had prescribed 100 mg zinc per day for one month to address the deficiency alone. long story short, with zinc up to 16 umol/L my ua bounced up to close to 280 *excellent*. cognitive issues that had made it particularly difficult to drive cleared up at the same time, never to return.

not to say 11.5-18.5 (75-120) is perfect by any stretch, but it's definitely way better than some of the lab to lab variation i've seen out there.
sources/entities using 11.5-18.5 (75-120):
american medical association: http://bit.ly/1PdSF5K
manual of scientific style: http://bit.ly/2iPL9Ww
council for continuing pharma ed: http://bit.ly/2k60inE

the flip side - zinc toxicity scenarios:

Denture cream: An unusual source of excess zinc, leading to hypocupremia and neurologic disease
http://bit.ly/2hWtEGX
from Table 1 Characteristics of patients using excessive amounts of denture cream

Serum zinc (0.66–1.10 ug/mL) [hmm] in four patients
2.0, 1.36, 1.4, 4.28
(perhaps more familiarly 200, 136, 140 and (!) 428 ug/dl)
[interesting, maybe some denture adhesive users in the mix at your local lab?]
with
Serum copper (0.75–1.45 ug/mL) levels
0.1, 0.18, 0.23, 0.1 (10, 18, 23, 10 ug/dl)
considering optimal cu:zn ratio 0.70-1.0, this crew had:
.05, 0.13, 0.16 and 0.02 !!!!!
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
Volunteer Moderator
 
Posts: 10243
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:00 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Natural Approach

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Contact us | Terms of Service