Adventures with magnesium

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Adventures with magnesium

Postby NHE » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:06 am

So, for years I've taken 200 mg of MgCitrate and 1000 iu of vitamin D3. I then had my D3 levels checked and found that they were lower than the prior year. I upped the D3 to 2000 iu. However, after some time (a year or so) I started getting cramps in my leg and in the sole of my foot. Realizing that this could be due to low Mg, I upped the dose to 400 mg/day. The cramps went away immediately. I've continued at 400 mg for most of the last year. Then last week an interesting thing happened. For reasons I can't explain, I felt compelled to take 800 mg over the course of a day. This was 600 mg MgCitrate followed by 200 mg of MgGlycinate. Several hours after the last dose, I experienced an amazing episode of clear headedness. I was more lucid then I can recall being in years. I could also walk better and had better balance. Unfortunately, this was late at night and I didn't get to sleep until about 7 AM. A reasonable hypothesis seemed that this was due to Mg's vasodilation effects. I checked PubMed. I found trials where patients were taking doses as high as 972 mg Mg/day. I figured that 800 mg wasn't too much. So, like a junkie chasing their first high, I tried various combinations and dosage schedules to try to get the vasodilation effects back. It never happened. Worse, after a week my legs became so weak that my walking was greatly impacted (reduced to a shuffle), my balance was worse and I was experiencing increased falls. Damn. So now it's back to 200 mg/day for a little while to do a washout and then back to 400 mg. Still chasing that ever elusive lucidity, I'm now looking at other vasodilators like L-arginine. Any helpful thoughts, comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:32 am

hi nhe! glad your tweaking with the d3 and mag went well :D

question: what was your max daily dose of magnesium while you were experimenting? the weakness is something I have definitely experienced when taking too much magnesium. it blocks calcium which your muscles need to contract, so yay, another balancing act :S

do you remember or did you track what you had eaten leading up to that particular day last week? was your hydration the same as usual?

also, as I understand it 400mg per day is recommended daily minimum for magnesium, whereas 600mg would be more in the optimal intake range. 'best bet' recommendations for daily mag go as high as 1200mg, but personally that would take me out :(

so as for combinations, have you tried a few days with 400mg magnesium glycinate?

I can relate to the variable lucidity! I suspect I've been burning through magnesium like crazy what with all the stress from school and injury and surgery and physio. definitely need to keep it topped up! (although I can't pin my improvements on magnesium specifically and usually just throw a bunch of other stuff in as well, knowing that everything I'm putting in is good, and something will stick :D )
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby NHE » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:52 pm

jimmylegs wrote:hi nhe! glad your tweaking with the d3 and mag went well :D

question: what was your max daily dose of magnesium while you were experimenting?

I had thought that my post was clear, 800 mg Mg/day for one week.

jimmylegs wrote:the weakness is something I have definitely experienced when taking too much magnesium. it blocks calcium which your muscles need to contract, so yay, another balancing act :S

Great... It wasn't a good thing. I needed to use my rollator indoors. My family was also concerned about me. The rapid change was fairly dramatic, almost like a relapse, but fortunately it seems to have been reversible upon going back to 200 mg Mg/day. I might try a few doses of Ca to get things topped back up.

jimmylegs wrote:do you remember or did you track what you had eaten leading up to that particular day last week? was your hydration the same as usual?

Everything was pretty much the same except that I had a couple of brown rice dishes for breakfast. One was a small bowl of leftover brown rice, ground beef & veggie stuffing from Thanksgiving and the other was a small bowl of brown rice, sausage & ginger dish.

jimmylegs wrote:also, as I understand it 400mg per day is recommended daily minimum for magnesium, whereas 600mg would be more in the optimal intake range. 'best bet' recommendations for daily mag go as high as 1200mg, but personally that would take me out :(

Agreed, consuming 1200 mg Mg/day would likely make me near comatose. Sustained usage could also start impacting other important muscles like the diaphragm.

jimmylegs wrote:so as for combinations, have you tried a few days with 400mg magnesium glycinate?

Yes, there were days that I had 400 mg of MgGlycinate. One day I even tried 800 mg MgGlycinate. The only difference I ran into was that the MgGlycinate pills were easier to swallow since they're slightly more tapered than the MgCitrate pills.

jimmylegs wrote:I can relate to the variable lucidity! I suspect I've been burning through magnesium like crazy what with all the stress from school and injury and surgery and physio. definitely need to keep it topped up! (although I can't pin my improvements on magnesium specifically and usually just throw a bunch of other stuff in as well, knowing that everything I'm putting in is good, and something will stick :D )


Do you have any experience with arginine?
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:51 pm

the ca and mg the intake ratio is supposed to be 2:1. i take plenty of supplemental magnesium, but my dietary calcium must be sufficient.. i can't even handle any calcium supplements. as soon as I take some, I start to feel more muscle spasticity, as well as pain in my back (which I tend to assume is associated with my kidneys complaining).

if i take two magnesium glycinate 400mg per day, i start to have difficulty with stairs due to a slight feeling of heaviness. when i reduce the mag, it goes away.

a cup of brown rice provides almost 100mg of magnesium. according to whfoods, brown rice is an excellent source of manganese, and a good source of selenium, magnesium and tryptophan. manganese helps the body utilize several nutrients including biotin, thiamin, ascorbic acid, and choline.

i wonder if your food context was a contributing factor?

i have no xp with arginine - would be interesting to see what is needed to support the kidneys' conversion of citrulline to arginine.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby NHE » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:22 am

jimmylegs wrote:a cup of brown rice provides almost 100mg of magnesium. according to whfoods, brown rice is an excellent source of manganese, and a good source of selenium, magnesium and tryptophan. manganese helps the body utilize several nutrients including biotin, thiamin, ascorbic acid, and choline.

i wonder if your food context was a contributing factor?


I eat brown rice several times per week. I doubt that the rice made any difference.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:10 am

oh I just misinterpreted your reply about food then. still a mystery! I have no idea what difference two-three servings per week vs two servings in one sitting would make to serum levels of the major nutritional constituents of brown rice! I doubt the study has been done :S hehe
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:06 am

the ca and mg the intake ratio is supposed to be 2:1.


The Calcium to Magnesium ratio is supposed to be At Most 2:1
and this is from all sources according to Durlach.

Even the commonly agreed-upon ratio of 2:1 calcium to magnesium found in many supplements is a major stumbling block overcoming the overcalcification of our population.

In fact, it's a myth. This so-called recommendation traces back to French scientist Jean Durlach who warned that the 2:1 ratio was a "never to be exceeded" level when considering calcium intake from all sources (food, water and supplements).[7] His warning has been greatly misunderstood and is taken as a recommendation of a 2:1 calcium-to-magnesium imbalance instead of something to avoid.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carolyn-dean-md-nd/bone-health_b_1540931.html

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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:45 am

hence the use of the phrase 'supposed to' rather than something like 'the intake ratio of calcium to magnesium in typical healthy controls is'.
in context "i can't even handle any calcium supplements. as soon as I take some, I start to feel more muscle spasticity, as well as pain in my back (which I tend to assume is associated with my kidneys complaining)" is included to provide perspective on the use of the 2:1 ratio.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:58 am

i can't even handle any calcium supplements


Calcium gives me trouble too, whether it be from supplements, dairy, or green sources. It makes worse what the magnesium makes better. It did this even when I was taking 2000+ mg per day of TRS magnesium glycinate.

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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:42 am

I can't even fathom how you managed to take 2000mg per day of magnesium anything! I would be a puddle.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:11 pm

I think I would also be a puddle, so to speak, if I took 2000 mg (now).
As of the past week, my (bowel) tolerance for Mg has gone down greatly to about 200 - 400 mg per day. I think this is probably a good sign that I've reached another stage in my Mg journey. Now I am mainly using Mg oil and Mg foot soaks. When the Mg deficiency symptoms, such as spasticity and all around hyperreactive muscle reflexes end, I will adjust my intake.

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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:34 pm

sounds good. do you have a handle on your potassium intake? phosphorus?
I am thinking for example of that one article on refractory hypokalemia which docs were able to correct after addressing magnesium status. you probably know daily potassium requirements are much much higher than many available k supplement products.
k status could be related to any lingering spasticity issues. I know when I went back to the original pharmacist who put me on the right track with magnesium years ago, and asked what else I could do other than eat magnesium, take magnesium, and be patient, he suggested I take a look at potassium.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:22 pm

sounds good. do you have a handle on your potassium intake? phosphorus?


I don't know much at all about K and P. What a coincidence that you mention K, I just spoke with a doctor today who gives magnesium IV's and he mentioned that potassium needs to be considered also.

What should I know about K and P?

Thanks
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:03 pm

hey there :) ok so daily potassium intake needs to be between 3500-4200mgs per depending which health authority you ask. many off the shelf supps are along the lines of 99mg. I have been able to get over the counter products providing 600mg.

healthy potassium foods: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?dbid ... #foodchart
swiss chard, lima beans, potatoes (skin on) and yams make a significant contribution (~900+mg per 1c serving). spinach comes close at over 800mg per 1c serving, cooked. (hmm, time for another slice of spinach feta pie!)

as for phosphorus, consider choosing organic as much as possible.
Conventional agriculture has had a significant impact on global phosphorus cycles (Bouwman et al, 2011). Conventional farming methods result in higher soil phosphorus and lower soil magnesium compared to organic farming (Gosling & Shepherd, 2005; Bulluck et al, 2002). In light of this dynamic, it is disconcerting to observe that phosphorus excess and dietary magnesium deficits are widespread in the (US) human population (Ford & Mokdad, 2003). High phosphorus and low magnesium intakes are associated with diverse human health consequences (Calvo & Uribarri 2013a; Johnson, 2001). More disturbing still is the observed interaction between soil phosphorus, magnesium, and toxic cadmium. Soil phosphorus contributes not only to crop phosphorus content, but to toxic cadmium uptake by crop plants (Grant, 2011). At the same time, magnesium deficit in plants helps mask this cadmium excess (Hermans et al, 2011). The phosphorus-magnesium dynamic in agricultural fields is by no means the only reason for the similar imbalances seen in the human population (Calvo & Uribarri, 2013b), but its potential contribution to the problem should not be discounted, especially given the toxic cadmium aspect.


btw you want your potassium:sodium intake ratio to be 2:1. (or so they say - I would have a look at distribution in a few different foods and take my cue from that). typical processed foods are more like 1:5. lentils stand out in my mind as having a great natural potassium to sodium ratio. the very occasional canned lentil soup even lists the potassium content so that you can do the math on the spot.
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Re: Adventures with magnesium

Postby THX1138 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:45 pm

Thanks jimmylegs :-D

I like that you mentioned supplemental K and food sources.

The source of a lot of K I would like to mention is low sodium V8 - 1000mg/8 oz. in my last bottle of the spicy hot variety.

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