Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Tell us what you are using to treat your MS-- and how you are doing.

Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby stillfighting » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:29 pm

Any of you using this and having any symptom relief Or NOT having any luck with it.
I just started it, I have read it is good for nerve pain. I have also seen a few taking it for fatigue.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby NHE » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:42 pm

stillfighting wrote:Any of you using this and having any symptom relief Or NOT having any luck with it.
I just started it, I have read it is good for nerve pain. I have also seen a few taking it for fatigue.


I took acetyl-L-carnitine for several months, maybe a year and a bit. There were a couple of occasions when I noticed increased mental and physical energy, but these were infrequent. With one batch of acetyl-L-carnitine I had, the supplement caplets developed a vinegary odor to them as I got near the end of the bottle so I would recommend keeping them in the refrigerator. I have also taken r-lipoic acid. There were times that I was taking both. I didn't notice anything special even though the published research indicates that this is a beneficial combination. It may have been a dosage issue, I really don't know.

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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby stillfighting » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:40 pm

I don't have any L Cartinine now. I am taking just taking the Alpha lipoic acid at about 1000 mg a day. This bottle won't last long enough to worry about and it's cool here now.
Thanks for the info. I am about ready to take anything. I will have to order online to make this more cost effective. I see where a few have had good results ( see where they report mostly fatigue) I read diabetic nerve pain and ms nerve pain.
I am game at this point. I don't think I will ever take another ms med. Well maybe not..
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby NHE » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:19 am

stillfighting wrote:I don't have any L Cartinine now. I am taking just taking the Alpha lipoic acid at about 1000 mg a day.


You might be interested in this thread, Lipoic Acid: R vs. S.

Alpha lipoic acid consists of two isomers, known as r and s enantiomers. The s form is a synthetic form while r is natural. Consumption of the s form has a phsiological cost.

stillfighting wrote:This bottle won't last long enough to worry about and it's cool here now.


It's been known since the 1950's that lipoic acid will form an inactive polymer in response to heat (even at room temperature given time). One potential solution is to keep it refrigerated. However, since we don't have control over what happens to the bottle before we buy it, the best solution is to use one of the stabilized forms. Vitacost offers a couple of options that are reasonably priced, one is by Doctor's Best.

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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby stillfighting » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:06 am

Thanks I have not decided if I will buy any more. I have felt a lot better. I know it's not because of the ala though. It is just a fluke. But I am going to take all of this bottle.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby stillfighting » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:30 am

I should add I am not taking L cartinine yet. I got this ala from walmart. I have had a lot of improvement, but I don't think it's the ala. It actually started a few hours before I started the ala. I know odd. My ms works likes this. It's RR it got really bad.
I could not hardly stand it. Bad nerve pain, burning and numb.. painful itching. so I went and got this.. I had noticed I thought it was getting a little better. I took this before bedtime. ( I don't think this had anything to do with it) 100 pills in the bottle) I am taking 1000 mg's a day. This bottle won't last 3 weeks. I am not cured by any means.. Each day and hour is a new experience. I kinda feel like I am getting a cold.. not good.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby Azaeleaprawn » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:17 am

I was taking L cartinine along with R+ala, iodine, coQ10. & vitamin A as per a naturopath who advised a protocol from the late Dr Harry Foster.
It hasn't seemed to have any effect other than giving me headaches so I cut the dosage of the carnitine to one third of the dose and my headaches cleared. They were added to my regular supplements which the naturo checked out & approved of.
None of these have made a difference and I took them for a month so I will be givng them up
and am going to have a Lyme test as well as looking at starting LDN. Have to convince the GP first about that since the neuro just gave me a lecture about how it was a cash grab along with CCSVI ...don't get that but this guy is a gets a little shirty when I mention anything he hasn't talked about first. The big Ego thing again.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby Guest » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:20 am

Azaeleaprawn wrote: Have to convince the GP first about that since the neuro just gave me a lecture about how it was a cash grab


That's funny. My neuro wants to start me on Rebif (2 months into MS diagnosis) and i asked her about LDN. She said she would prescribe it if other meds don't work. So they will prescribe which means they believe its potential, but they want me to try a $4000/month drug over a $40/month drug. I questioned that and she avoided it. So i refused Rebif for the time being. Rebif even sent the packet and self injector, ha!

Any some say doctors dont get kickbacks! $40/month for a non side-effect drug vs. $4000/month for a potential depression/suicide inducer. Makes perfect sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby want2bike » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:08 am

If your doctor doesn't agree with you time to get a new doctor.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby stillfighting » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:18 am

I am currently on Cymbalta, and Tysabri.. the cymbalta was prescribed by my GP. Yes, neuro is an PIA. I have been on LDN in the past and it did not help. I appreciate your advice..
Please remember this too, I would change neuro's if I could. Do not always just go to a Dr who tells you what you want.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby want2bike » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:48 am

That is the real question which doctor do you believe. They all have different treatments. We must make the decision which one do we listen to. If we listern to the wrong doctor we will not get well. Have you ever heard of Dr. McDougall. He has a study going on treating MS patients. Some people die when they listen to the wrong doctor. If you are taking alpha lipoic acid it should be the R-Alpha Lipoic Acid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJyQTTZr ... _embedded#!

http://www.healingdaily.com/Doctors-Are ... the-US.htm

http://www.livestrong.com/article/51781 ... poic-acid/
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby NHE » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:26 pm

Rethinking L-carnitine supplements...


Study finds ingredient in steak can harden arteries, and it’s not the fat
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworl ... tsxml.html

The fat and cholesterol found in a steak may not be the only components bad for the heart, according to researchers who have found another substance called carnitine that turns into a compound known to harden arteries, according to a study published Sunday.

By GINA KOLATA

It was breakfast time, and the people participating in a study of red meat and its consequences had hot, sizzling sirloin steaks plopped down in front of them. The researcher himself bought a George Foreman grill for the occasion and the nurse assisting him did the cooking.

For the sake of science, these six men and women ate every last juicy bite of the 8-ounce steaks. Then they waited to have their blood drawn.

Dr. Stanley Hazen of the Cleveland Clinic, a nonprofit academic medical center, who led the study, and his colleagues had accumulated evidence for a surprising new explanation of why red meat may contribute to heart disease. And they were testing it with this early-morning experiment.

The researchers had come to believe that what damaged hearts was not just the thick edge of fat on steaks, or the delectable marbling of their tender interiors. The real culprit, they proposed, was a little-studied chemical that is burped out by bacteria in the stomach after people eat red meat. It is quickly converted by the liver into yet another little-studied chemical called TMAO that gets into the blood and increases the risk of heart disease.

The questions that morning were: Would a burst of TMAO show up in peoples’ blood after they ate steak? And would the same thing happen to a vegan who had not had meat for at least a year and who consumed the same meal?

The answers were: Yes, there was a TMAO burst in the five meat eaters and no, the vegan did not have it. And TMAO levels turned out to predict heart-attack risk in humans, the researchers found.

The researchers also found that TMAO actually caused heart disease in mice. Additional studies with 23 vegetarians and vegans and 51 meat eaters showed that meat eaters normally had more TMAO in their blood and that they, unlike those who spurned meat, readily made TMAO after swallowing pills with the chemical transformed by the bacteria, carnitine.

“It’s really a beautiful combination of mouse studies and human studies to tell a story I find quite plausible,” said Dr. Daniel J. Rader, a heart-disease researcher at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, who was not involved in the research.

Researchers say the work could lead to new treatments for heart disease — perhaps even an antibiotic to specifically wipe out the bacterial culprit — and also to a new way to assess heart-disease risk by looking for TMAO in the blood.

Critical questions remain. Would people reduce their heart-attack risk if they lowered their blood TMAO levels? An association between TMAO levels in the blood and heart-disease risk does not necessarily mean that one causes the other. And which gut bacteria in particular are the culprits?

There also are questions about the safety of supplements, like energy drinks and those used in body building. Such supplements often contain carnitine, a substance found mostly in red meat.

But the investigators’ extensive experiments in both humans and animals, published Sunday in Nature Medicine, have persuaded scientists not connected with the study to seriously consider this new theory of why red meat eaten too often might be bad for people.

The study does not mean that red meat is entirely bad or that it is best to avoid it entirely, said Hazen. Meat contains protein and B vitamins, which are both essential for health. But the study’s findings indicated that the often-noticed association between red-meat consumption and heart-disease risk might be related to more than just the saturated fat and cholesterol.

Hazen, the chairman of the department of cellular and molecular medicine at the Lerner Research Institute of the Cleveland Clinic, began his research five years ago with a scientific fishing expedition.

In a study of 10,000 patients who came to the Cleveland Clinic for evaluations and were at risk for heart disease, the patients agreed to provide blood samples and to be followed so the researchers would know if any of them had a heart attack or died of heart disease in the three years after the first visit.

Those samples enabled Hazen to look for small molecules in the blood to see whether any were associated with heart attacks or deaths.

That study and a series of additional experiments led to the discovery that a red- meat substance no one had suspected — carnitine — seemed to be a culprit. It is also found in many foods, Hazen noted, including fish and chicken and even dairy products, but in small amounts. Red meat, he said, is the major source.

The researchers found that carnitine was not dangerous by itself. Instead, the problem arose when it was metabolized by bacteria in the intestines and ended up as TMAO in the blood.

That led to the steak-eating study. It turned out that within a couple of hours of a regular meat eater having a steak, TMAO levels in the blood soared.

But the outcome was quite different when a vegan ate a steak. Researchers had hypothesized that vegans would not have as many of the gut bacteria needed to make TMAO, and indeed virtually no TMAO appeared in the vegan’s blood after he consumed a steak.

“We did not expect to see such a dramatic difference,” Hazen said.

Then researchers gave meat eaters doses of antibiotics to wipe out almost all of their gut bacteria. After that, they no longer had TMAO in their blood either after consuming red meat or carnitine pills. That meant, he said, that the effect really was because of gut bacteria.

Researchers then tried to determine whether people with high blood carnitine or TMAO levels were at higher heart-disease risk. They analyzed blood from more than 2,500 people, to determine if carnitine or TMAO levels predicted heart attacks independently of traditional risk factors like smoking, high cholesterol and blood pressure.

Both carnitine and TMAO did. But upon further analysis, they discovered that the effect was solely because of TMAO.

The researchers’ theory, based on their laboratory studies, is that TMAO enables cholesterol to get into artery walls and also prevents the body from excreting excess cholesterol. He said he worries about carnitine-containing energy drinks. Carnitine often is added to the drinks on the assumption that is will speed fat metabolism and increase a person’s energy level, Hazen said.

Dr. Robert H. Eckel, a professor of medicine at the University of Colorado and a past president of the American Heart Association, worried about how carnitine might be affecting bodybuilders and athletes who often take it because they believe it builds muscle.

Those supplements, Hazen said, “are scary, especially for our kids.”

Hazen has taken his findings to heart. He used to eat red meat several times a week, about 12 ounces at a time.

Now, he said, he eats it once every two weeks and has no more than 4-6 ounces at a time.

“I am not a vegan,” Hazen said. “I like a good steak.”
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby NHE » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:32 pm

Rethinking L-carnitine supplements...

Here's the paper which was the basis for the above article.

Intestinal microbiota metabolism of l-carnitine, a nutrient in red meat, promotes atherosclerosis
Nature Medicine: Published online 07 April 2013

    Intestinal microbiota metabolism of choline and phosphatidylcholine produces trimethylamine (TMA), which is further metabolized to a proatherogenic species, trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO). We demonstrate here that metabolism by intestinal microbiota of dietary l-carnitine, a trimethylamine abundant in red meat, also produces TMAO and accelerates atherosclerosis in mice. Omnivorous human subjects produced more TMAO than did vegans or vegetarians following ingestion of l-carnitine through a microbiota-dependent mechanism. The presence of specific bacterial taxa in human feces was associated with both plasma TMAO concentration and dietary status. Plasma l-carnitine levels in subjects undergoing cardiac evaluation (n = 2,595) predicted increased risks for both prevalent cardiovascular disease (CVD) and incident major adverse cardiac events (myocardial infarction, stroke or death), but only among subjects with concurrently high TMAO levels. Chronic dietary l-carnitine supplementation in mice altered cecal microbial composition, markedly enhanced synthesis of TMA and TMAO, and increased atherosclerosis, but this did not occur if intestinal microbiota was concurrently suppressed. In mice with an intact intestinal microbiota, dietary supplementation with TMAO or either carnitine or choline reduced in vivo reverse cholesterol transport. Intestinal microbiota may thus contribute to the well-established link between high levels of red meat consumption and CVD risk.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby CaveMan » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:50 pm

There is not enough information available to determine if this study has any validity, it still lies in the realm of "Corrolation does not prove Causation"
What are the details of the subjects?
As there is only the abstract available and some figures it is hard to analyze, in one of the figures it compared male Vegan to female Omnivore, that automatically discounts that conclusion as we know there are significant differences in metabolism between sexes.
With the Corrolation of L Carnitine to CVD risk, that likely has the same degree of validity as the Saturated Fat/Cholesterol CVD hypothesis, the Carnitine levels may well be higher, but the question is:
Are Carnitine levels elevated in CVD patients as a protective measure against another unidentified risk factor?
From epidemiological studies I have seen Vegans & Vegitarians have the same CVD risk when confounding lifestyle factors are removed, primarily Vegans are usually younger and Vegitarians have a healthier lifestyle in general, when they are matched against equal age and lifestyle, they are no better and often worse, particularly with regard to Cancer and autoimmune disease.
I have found on Paleo and other Autoimmune forums there is a disproportional representation of Vegans with chronic ilnesses, which suggests to me it is a borderline nutritional philosophy.
The researchers’ theory, based on their laboratory studies, is that TMAO enables cholesterol to get into artery walls and also prevents the body from excreting excess cholesterol.

Now that one raises questions, it is now known that there is no cholesterol in arterial plaque, it is primarily composed of oxidised Omega 6 fatty acids, while they are still clinging to Cholesterol as the culprit when it obviously isn't, then their is built in bias in their conclusions.

Articles should only ever be considered as a lead and not fact, they are usually written by someone with an Agenda and if studies have any emotive language at all, then the raw data needs to be scrutinised to confirm the conclusions drawn and look for a different conclusion from the same data.

Could it be that Carnitin Supplimentation may actually have a protective role in CVD?

As for the Microbiota, well that's even bigger, but one should tread carefully and not fall into the trap of assuming they know what's going on, an antibiotic to cleanse the gut of CVD risk, sounds like a new drug pipeline.
I would venture a guess that it may be a research push to get something up and replace the "Statin cash cow" which looks like it's going into it's death throws and may be burried in the near future as more individuals realise they are being duped into an early grave.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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Re: Alpha lipoic acid and L-Cartinine

Postby leonardo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:17 pm

L carnitine is not Acetyl L Carnitine.

I get very good results with ALC on fatige.
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