Paleo Diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet
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lyndacarol
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by lyndacarol »

These are hypotheses. When one of these or another hypothesis is PROVEN – with repeatable, irrefutable evidence – that is a theory, and will hold the answer to our MS!

I think you have a good suggestion, chico: a basic set of dietary/lifestyle guidelines would be a good idea. Let us start with:

#1 Remove ALL trans fats from the diet.

#2 Remove all sugar (including beer, wine, etc. which have sugar), remove all artificial sweeteners, including sugar alcohols (polyols) such as sorbitol, xylitol, mannitol, erythritol, lactitol, etc. (sugar alcohols are "sweeter" than sugar), and remove white flour, white bread, white potatoes, white rice (which convert readily to glucose, a.k.a. blood sugar, in the body) from your diet.
CaveMan
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by CaveMan »

chico wrote:Everyone (including myself) with celiac or gluten sensitivity should be concerned about gluten.
Thats clear to me. This is also my takeaway from reading the article from huffingtonpost. I missed out on the MS connection thou.

I am aware that one study has found a higher incidence of celiac among people with MS. Other have failed to show this correlation.
But I am still in need of solid evidence that one without gluten sensitivities should cut out whole grains. There is strong evidence that whole grains can lower risk of cardiovascular diseases.
How will you know if you are sensitive to Gluten or Grain products, the only test for a singular antibody against Gliadin, which is only one of the thousands of different complex proteins present in grains. Coeliac disease is just the tip of the iceberg, it goes down in layers and they are discovering Non Gliadin Gluten sensitivity, that is individuals with a range of different symptoms that self resolve when the wheat products are removed from the diet. Now you need to understand this is only individuals with severe symptoms because they are seeking relief, there is countless people out there with apparantly mild symptoms that they just bear with it because they are too vague for doctors to diagnose.
Before I dropped grains, I was healthy or so I thought, but within 3 months a whole range of different minor issues just resolved, and I'm pretty sure it was wheat products because I did fall off the wagon and the symptoms came back and then went away again when I stopped them. Point is you won't really know if you are sensitive unless you actually do a full elimination diet.

That link you posted was a press release and I could not access the study, unless you can see the actual study and determine how they drew their conclusions, there is no way to verify the claims of a press release. They were persistantly referring to wholegrain bread and that suggests to me it probably not far different to every other study I've seen on that topic and they all draw a conclusion to say wholegrain bread is healthy when they compare wholegrain to processed grains, there have been none that I have seen that actually compared grain to no grains consumption. So you can not conclude that wholegrains are healthy, they are just healthier than processed grains.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
CaveMan
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by CaveMan »

lyndacarol wrote:These are hypotheses. When one of these or another hypothesis is PROVEN – with repeatable, irrefutable evidence – that is a theory, and will hold the answer to our MS!

I think you have a good suggestion, chico: a basic set of dietary/lifestyle guidelines would be a good idea. Let us start with:

#1 Remove ALL trans fats from the diet.

#2 Remove all sugar (including beer, wine, etc. which have sugar), remove all artificial sweeteners, including sugar alcohols (polyols) such as sorbitol, xylitol, mannitol, erythritol, lactitol, etc. (sugar alcohols are "sweeter" than sugar), and remove white flour, white bread, white potatoes, white rice (which convert readily to glucose, a.k.a. blood sugar, in the body) from your diet.
I'd add:
3/ Remove all processed foods, they have the bulk of additives and toxins.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
want2bike
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by want2bike »

Everyone is looking for the cause of MS. That is a loser game. There is no one cause of MS. MS is cause by toxins in the body. MS is reversed by diet. To some people gluten becomes a toxin. The only way to find out if it is a toxin for you is to try an elimination diet for a month and see how you feel. Gluten is not the only toxin out there. Our bodies are all different and each of us must find the correct diet. One thing for sure you can't go wrong with the fruits and vegetables if you stay away from the GMO garbage. As Dr. Bergman explains when you stop putting toxins in the body and eat healthy food you get better.

CaveMan
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by CaveMan »

want2bike wrote:stop putting toxins in the body and eat healthy food
I think everyone agrees with that as a general statement, the questions arise as to the definition of toxins & healthy foods.
Everyone has a different set of experiences and knowledge based on their own reading and with the conflicting amount of information at this stage there is no clearly defined singular approach, so it is a matter of working from the outside and determining what are the universally agreed toxins as far as food goes, even there you see significant dispute.
In my opinion Wheat family grains, Soy & Vegetable oils are absolute toxins and I think everyone should stop eating them, but others do not have the same view as me, am I wrong or are they wrong, only time will tell, maybe we're both right and it is dependant on the individual and that then just makes it even more confusing.

One can only look at the data and make an informed decision for themselves always keeping in mind that new information may come to light which may suggest they may need to revise their original decisions and modify their process, when we close our minds and refuse to consider other information this is when we become lost.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
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lyndacarol
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by lyndacarol »

chico wrote:I am aware that one study has found a higher incidence of celiac among people with MS. Other have failed to show this correlation.
But I am still in need of solid evidence that one without gluten sensitivities should cut out whole grains. There is strong evidence that whole grains can lower risk of cardiovascular diseases.
I am almost halfway through reading Wheat Belly, a book by Dr. William Davis, which discusses celiac disease and gluten sensitivity. The book has many references to studies and information; the author has specifically mentioned that one can have gluten sensitivities without the traditional symptoms and markers – he recommends that wheat in any form – whole wheat, whole grain, high fiber – should be eliminated from the diet.

By the way, one of wheat's effects is on the glucose/insulin system. Wheat spikes insulin more than table sugar or eating candy bars! I encourage every reader here to read this book.
Last edited by lyndacarol on Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My hypothesis: excess insulin (hyperinsulinemia) plays a major role in MS, as developed in my initial post: http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-discussion-f1/topic1878.html "Insulin – Could This Be the Key?"
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erinc14
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

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CaveMan
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by CaveMan »

lyndacarol wrote:
chico wrote:I am aware that one study has found a higher incidence of celiac among people with MS. Other have failed to show this correlation.
But I am still in need of solid evidence that one without gluten sensitivities should cut out whole grains. There is strong evidence that whole grains can lower risk of cardiovascular diseases.
I am almost halfway through reading Wheat Belly, a book by Dr. William Davis, which discusses celiac disease and gluten sensitivity. The book has many references to studies and information; the author has specifically mentioned that one can have gluten sensitivities without the traditional symptoms and markers – he recommends that wheat in any form – whole wheat, whole grain, high fiber – should be eliminated from the diet.

By the way, one of wheat's effects is on the glucose/insulin system. Wheat spikes insulin more than table sugar or eating candy bars! I encourage every reader here to read this book.
The thing about Wheat and Gluten is that modern wheat is far removed from it's wild counterpart, it is a high gluten GMO and gluten (Gliadin) is not the only poly peptide in wheat that the body reacts to with antibodies, the problem is we do not have tests to identify all the different antibodies, so we classify such individuals as "non gluten sensitivity", which means yes they do react badly to wheat, but we have not identified the particular compound or mechanism yet.
I am just an interested individual trying to crack the autoimmune nut.
Partner has Graves Disease, 5 years, showing good test results, looking forward to potential remission in the near future.
3 friends have MS, 1 just recently diagnosed, severity 7/10.
jerrygallow
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by jerrygallow »

"toxin". A favorite meaningless term used frequently by quacks.
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msmything
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by msmything »

Has anyone wathced Dr. Terry Wahls, and her TEDx video. Ya know with all of the pills, shots etc over the years, following a diet seems like an easy step to try. I have my MS go wild in the past year, and a reactivation of another auto called pemphigus. It's painful and going wild. One of the lesions picked up MRSA too, more pills and unguents. If the Wahls protocol lessens my body's burden of either of these it'll be well worth it!
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jimmylegs
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by jimmylegs »

hey there. if you are wondering whether the paleo crew know about the wahls story, fire away.

if you want to compare notes with others about their prior wahls xp, forum search results on +wahls +ted are all in the wahls diet discussion topic:

http://www.thisisms.com/forum/search.ph ... mit=Search
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msmything
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by msmything »

Hiya Jimmy Legs, I'm so sorry I missed your reply! Anyway, after thinking about it for a bit I jumped full force into Wahls/Paleo (my own mix). Within 3 days I was able to lift my right leg, something I hadn't been able to do in about a year. I was able to get dressed w/o all sorts of gyrations, lifting my legright in to my pants and shoe/socks. Within 3 months, my urinary tract symptoms were gone. As if MS isn't isolating already, being afraid to pee in someone's car or on their couch keeps ya home!
Anyway the best part is I had not seen my neurologist in a LONG time- -15 months. When I went to see her she put me through my paces with all of the drunk tests. I had improved on EVERY measure. My walking faster, my fine motor faster and more accurate. Then, she asked me to do that heel toe on a straight line walk..and I said Oh I don't think I can do that one...I did it perfectly. My strength was improved in arma and legs.
When the results came back on the MRI she ordered..no new damage..no shrinkage..no age related changes.
I eat a very boring diet from the outside. Fish chicken steak vegetables, raw greens and some fruits. I'll stick with boring, it must be reducing inflammation somewhere. I am still struggling with pemphigus, which is odd as it's an autoimmune as well. I thought it would respond favorably like MS did, but it is worse. I don't know what in my diet is aggravating it, and it's hard to eliminate from so few factors.

If anyone is on the fence for Paleo for MS, get off of it and give it a try..what have you got to lose? (yeah, I lost 30 pounds too)
Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle..
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jimmylegs
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by jimmylegs »

weird re pemphigus! had you read this?
http://www.pemphigus.org/pemphigus-and- ... k-exist-2/
(clinical data and experimental data sections are interesting.. seafood? garlic?)
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jimmylegs
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by jimmylegs »

sketchy research. super vague re participants' 'usual diet' and no analysis re the degree to which either approach conforms, or does not, to public health recommendations

Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet (2009)
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn20094#t1

from table 1, i note appallingly low magnesium intakes in both groups

table 2 paleo menu details are interesting/funny. excellent frequency, fair diversity, lame nutrient density.
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Re: Paleo Diet discussion

Post by jimmylegs »

i'm looking for evidence base. this is among the top 'paleo diet -book' scholar search results so far.

Paleo diet still lacks evidence (2016)
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/104/3/844/4564746

Dear Editor:

We had been looking forward to the publication of the systematic review by Manheimer et al. (1), which examined the effect of the “paleolithic diet” on components of metabolic syndrome. The “paleo diet” has been circulating in popular culture, but we wanted to see sound nutrition evidence before recommending dietary changes. However, we were very disappointed when we finally read the article. The abstract, specifically, overstates their findings—so much so that going by their statements you would have the impression that the paleo diet was significantly better than the control diet for people with metabolic syndrome. This article is another example of nutrition research conclusions that misrepresent the actual findings (2). We suggest that the Journal needs a higher standard for the interpretation of statistics and policies regarding accurate representation of research findings when P values are not shown. This overstatement by the researchers is particularly concerning given the current popular media’s habit of oversimplifying and overstating study results.

The authors stated in their abstract that “paleolithic nutrition resulted in greater short-term improvements than did the control diets” for 6 outcomes. Under closer inspection, 4 of these 6 results had CIs that were not significant, and all 6 of them were not compatible with any important clinical effects. Specifically, for waist circumference, the wide CI had a lower boundary of only 0.04 cm, a possible average outcome of the paleolithic diet. Furthermore, the estimated average differences for most of the primary outcomes were small (diastolic blood pressure: −2.5 mm Hg; HDL cholesterol: 0.12 mmol/L; fasting blood sugar: −0.16 mmol/L; systolic blood pressure: −3.6 mm Hg) and not likely of clinical or practical importance. All of the variables had wide CIs, which points out that no important change at all is a possible outcome of the paleolithic diet. Furthermore, the analyses on waist circumference, triglycerides, and HDL cholesterol all had high heterogeneity, which decreases confidence in the estimates.

Another concern is that Manheimer et al. (1) analyzed the included studies not as comparisons between the groups as recommended (3) but as changes from baseline. Baseline diets were not randomly assigned, and changes from baseline can be due to other things that change with time (3).

Some aspects of the promoted paleo diet as defined in the included studies in Manheimer et al. (1) are desirable, including increased vegetables and the elimination of low-nutrient processed foods. However, the philosophy-based paleo diet has not been adequately assessed for whether the restriction of dairy foods (good sources of protein, calcium, and phosphorus), legumes (excellent sources of protein, fiber, and nutrients), and grains (inexpensive staple foods for most populations) are actually health-promoting, as they claim.

In real practice, many people, including popular proponents of the paleo diet such as online bloggers and cookbook writers, are merely adapting their Western diet to align with paleo diet restrictions; for example, desserts made with “paleo”-acceptable alternatives such as almond flour and honey instead of sugar and wheat flour (http://ditchthewheat.com/best-paleo-cho ... nies-ever/). In this case, the paleo diet philosophy is extremely unlikely to change health outcomes for anybody but those with celiac disease.

We are also concerned about some of the comparisons in the article by Manheimer et al. (1). The randomized controlled trials included in the meta-analysis compared the paleo diet with older diets, specifically low-fat diets that were recommended 10–15 y ago. It is now established from evidence from randomized controlled trials that replacing saturated fats with highly processed carbohydrate foods (e.g., sugars and high-glycemic starches) does not decrease cardiovascular disease risks (4), so we should not use a low-fat diet as the comparator in future studies of the paleo diet.

We agree with the researchers that bone health has not been adequately studied among people consuming a paleolithic diet (1). They mentioned that urine calcium was lower with the paleo diet in 1 study and cited 2 older narrative reviews that suggest that “alkaline aspects” of the diet may allay any concerns about bone health deterioration. Higher-quality evidence showed that urine calcium is not a useful measure of bone health because it does not consider calcium absorption and retention, the latter being the superior assessment of calcium status (5). In summary, we do not believe that the results of their study provide evidence in support of the paleo diet and urge researchers and health practitioners to remain diligent in making evidence-based recommendations for health promotion.



i'll be looking at this in detail next:

Metabolic and physiologic effects from consuming a hunter-gatherer (Paleolithic)-type diet in type 2 diabetes (2015)
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn201539

(or not - another one that is super vague re the details of either diet. and as for what detail there is, what is the deal with SIXTY TIMES the sodium intake in the ADA diet as delivered, vs the paleo)
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