Spasticity

tt89 · Post by **tt89** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:26 pm

Please describe what it feels like for you.

I'm having a tough time distinguishing what it is I'm feeling. I am told that is what it is but nothing I read sounds like what Im going through.

Thank you

Loobie · Post by **Loobie** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:28 am

You must be peeking into my 'playbook' today because I deal with this also, especially in my legs. It feels like you've been frogged, caned, whipped or whatever, but it's simply painful to me. It's the two muscles that are supposed to work in concert with each other (one flexing, the other relieving) both flexing at the same time and playing tug of war. It's not like a spasm where your muscle is just fluttering, it's more like a dull charlie horse. My bad one is around my left knee as it seems to pull the joint out a little bit and make my knee hurt like hell. I know it's spasticity related as baclofen will relieve it lickety split. However, so does doing a lot of stretching and exercising. I take baclofen very rarely when I'm at work and don't have time to get down and stretch for a while (plus it takes me about 5 minutes to get back up again

), but it does knock out the knee pain temporarily, so I've written that off as spasticity.

It wasn't what I thought either; that my muscles would be actively spasming back and forth. They just pull against each other and it hurts and makes me limp.

tt89 · Post by **tt89** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:50 am

WOW thank you for the time you spent writing me on both issues.
I guess we are truly in the same boat with these two issues.

I don't like the side effects of baclofen so I don't use that or any of the other meds they have. I don't do well with them at all for some reason.

I take some tylenol arthritis ( for some reason is works decent) and if the pain is HUGE and bad I will take the smallest amount of Lortab which is a pain med but rarely do I take that. I have had MS since Feb 2008, well thats my official diagnosis but after getting a copy of my records I think I have had it since 2002 and they blew it diagnosing me but....that being said...I'm just tired of being in this much pain.

I woke up this morning and can barely move and my joints feel swollen. I've tried so many OTC things, magnisium and all. they work a short time then boom its back

I appreciate all your responses. Thank you sooo much

Post by **jimmylegs** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:07 am

i have been told by a pharmacist that potassium is supposed to help magnesium work better.
there is a link between vitamin b6 with an increase in intracellular magnesium too.
my spasticity is not painful - just annoying - but keeping the nutrient levels up keeps it at bay.
HTH,
JL

lyndacarol · Post by **lyndacarol** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:17 pm

Those people with muscle spasms, or spasticity, may find this short (less than 5 min.) video useful:

http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/your-mus ... ng-serious

The information from Dr. Oz fits so well with what jimmylegs has said many times: Spasms may stem from dehydration, low levels of calcium, magnesium, or potassium, or even if you are resting too long.

He suggests soaking for 15 minutes in a bath with 2 cups of Epsom salts dissolved in the water.

When identifying the areas where spasms are most common, he lists calves, quads, hamstrings, and around the eyes (eyes… Could muscle spasms there be connected to nystagmus?). He even says muscle spasms can be connected to hormone problems, especially thyroid problems.

Well worth 5 minutes of your time to watch!

Post by **jimmylegs** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:24 am

heya lc, yes magnesium has been linked to nystagmus. also thiamine.

i don't know what this abstract might mean for eyes, but for what it's worth, i searched on magnesium-thiamine interactions:

[Interaction of thiamine diphosphate with magnesium ion].
[Article in French]
Abstract
The action of magnesium ion on the exchange rate of the proton in C2 of thiamine and thiamine diphosphate is studied at different values of pD. Above pD 5 the ion Mg2+ increases this exchange rate. The phenomenon is markedly enhanced for TDP rather than thiamine and increases with pD. Below pD 5 magnesium decreases the exchange rate. This decrease is greater for TDP than for thiamine. The maximum effect is reached at a magnesium concentration of 0.5/1 for thiamine and of 1/1 for TDP. T1 measurements are made for different pH values with and without magnesium ion. Results seem to prove that an increase in pD values from 3.9 to 5.9 leads to an accentuation of the molecules "folded" form. Nevertheless for a given pD value the TDP-Mg complex seems to have a more "folded" form than TDP.

lyndacarol · Post by **lyndacarol** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm

JL – Thank you for your efforts; I'm not sure I understand the relevance, but then I am not a scientist.

lyndacarol · Post by **lyndacarol** » Sat May 14, 2011 5:45 pm

I knew that there was a paper about five years ago on the use of cycling to alleviate muscle spasticity in the legs. I knew it was done at the University of Illinois in the department of kinesiology. I think I have found the paper here:

Effect of acute unloaded arm versus leg cycling exercise on the soleus H-reflex in adults with multiple sclerosis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20570604

I had not known the author, but found this when I read in a couple sources (Momentum, the magazine of the National Multiple Sclerosis Society) that Robert Motl and Jacob Sosnoff at UIUC are collaborating on a study of the effects of exercise on spasticity in MS patients – Motl "is testing an exercise regimen that incorporates balanced amounts of aerobic, resistance, and balanced modes of training"; Sosnoff will have "a clinical trial investigating the effects different durations and intensities of leg cycling on MS spasticity."

Loobie, do you have an excercycle? It sounds like this might help your leg spasticity.

Since both studies are seeking participants who can be in Urbana-Champaign several times a week, if anyone is interested in being a study participant, contact the exercise neuroscience lab at 217-244-1191 or e-mail exerciseneurolab@gmail.com

sou · Post by **sou** » Sun May 15, 2011 1:02 am

Call me an *ss, but don't we have anything better to do in this life other than training like an athlete just to be able to take a couple of steps? Is this "success" and "good symptom management" to you?

Hell, no! Is there anybody else thinking like that or it is just me? I think that the hallmark of the spasticity business is fiding a way to lower the patient's expectations and making him not mind that he is not a human anymore.

"And what should be done, then?", somebody would ask. Well, I don't know and I don't have to know. It is them who claim to be the doctors, not me. What I see is a huge business making way much money offering nearly nothing. At least, we should stop feeding them. If we could really do something, the internet would be full of spasticity success stories. I have found none, so far.

Happy management!

Post by **jimmylegs** » Sun May 15, 2011 4:47 am

i use magnesium successfully. ie diaphragm able to relax so i can take a proper deep breath, arm spasticity gone, and i don't know if it was spasticity that gave me dysphagia in 2007, but magnesium fixed that too. it's a pretty fundamental mineral. biochemically, it ties up spots that calcium would otherwise use to contract muscle. ms patients are low in magnesium. dietary boosting and oral supplements (only the best absorbed forms), epsom salts baths according to package directions, and in dire situations like tetanus, intravenous magnesium can be used with good results.

sou · Post by **sou** » Sun May 15, 2011 6:38 am

Of course, it is essential, but I doubt it can improve the imbalance originating from improper neuron activation, which comes from an electrochemical imbalance due to the loss of communication between the lower motor neurons with the upper.

Magnesium can't help that at all. Neither neurologists nor any other kind of quacker-therapists or snake oils with sexy, scientific-and-serious-sounding names i.e. tizanidine, baclofen, quackerine or similars.

Any success story regarding flexor spasticity? (When I say success story, I mean turning from non-walking to walking normally without the least weakness caused by the idiots' drugs and pumps) Of course, I mean more than one. Can you see that spasticity CAN NOT be treated (as i mean treatment above)? Can we sue the quackers for false claims?

Post by **jimmylegs** » Sun May 15, 2011 7:53 am

sou we talked about this a year ago. you never did answer my question about the form of magnesium you were taking. also did you ever get your level tested? are you taking vitamin d3? because that could drive down your ability to absorb magnesium properly.

Eur J Neurol. 2000 Nov;7(6):741-4.
The effect of magnesium oral therapy on spasticity in a patient with multiple sclerosis.
Rossier P, van Erven S, Wade DT.

Abstract
The effects of magnesium glycerophosphate oral therapy on spasticity was studied in a 35-year-old woman with severe spastic paraplegia resulting from multiple sclerosis (MS). We found a significant improvement in the spasticity after only 1 week from the onset of the treatment on the modified Ashworth scale, an improvement in the range of motion and in the measures of angles at resting position in lower limbs. No side-effects were reported and there was no weakness in the arms during the treatment.

sou · Post by **sou** » Sun May 15, 2011 8:43 am

I take 1 to 2 caps./day and it contains:

400 mg Magnesium:

350 mg Magnesium oxide
40 mg Magnesium citrate
10 mg Magnesium aspartate

I also take 1000 IU Vit. D3 once every 3-4 days, but during summer, when I am exposed to direct sunlight, I take none.

How can damaged neurons and distorted signals be improved by magnesium? Magnesiumn makes a muscle easier to relax IF it is asked to do so by its nerves. I think that the problem is way more complicated than that and drugs make it even worse, because they prevent the nervous system from being trained again (as much as it can).

Spasticity makes you less mobile, lack of mobility+drugs prevents training, and the game is lost. Spasticity drugs should only be used as pain killers and never ever be given to ambulatory patients. That's just my opinion, though. I am no expert.

Post by **jimmylegs** » Sun May 15, 2011 8:54 am

also if you do get a level test, the normal range is 0.70-1.10 but the research specifies a minimum of 0.90 otherwise supplementation would be required.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7939388
Comparative findings on serum IMg2+ of normal and diseased human subjects with the Nova and Kone Ise's for Mg2+
"...multiple sclerosis patients exhibit extracellular [jl edit: read 'serum'] deficits in ionized free Mg."

Cece · Post by **Cece** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:23 pm

jimmylegs,
would you agree with the advice on magnesium in this article? It's simple but straightforward. Apparently my diet coke habit was bad for my magnesium levels too.....
www.ehow.com/how_3954_absorb-magnesium-supplements.html

sou wrote:400 mg Magnesium:

350 mg Magnesium oxide
40 mg Magnesium citrate
10 mg Magnesium aspartate

And does this sound pretty good?