Inclined Bed test

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:49 pm

After spending too much time on another thread about CCVI, I thought I would do a search across the whole web to see if it had caught anyone elses interests.

I kept on getting links from google to some guy placing Zamboni's study as confirmation of his theory.

Basically, its that we should all be sleeping with our heads a few inches higher than our feet. I wouldn't of given it a second glance, except for the fact that a vascular dr that cheerleader corresponds to, suggested she should do the same for her husband. That gave me a little more inspiration to give it the old "don't knock it till you try it" kind of a go.

Last night was my 3rd night of sleeping with my head higher than my feet. I can not say I have noticed anything MS wise. If anything, I may have too much of a slant, however it was the easiest way (its going to be harder to put back together as it is

) Oh, and when you roll out of bed, you tend to roll to one of the bottom corners, instead cleanly straight out the side.

I think the guy has a bit of a bad reputation in the forums I found him on. His theory also includes helping SCI patients regain some function. You can read his ideas at http://www.canparaplegic.org/en/Researc ... ms/12.html

Do not forget he is not a qualified medical person, and the "articles" he produced are not published in peer reviewed journals. But he is also not trying to make a buck out of it either.

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:26 pm

The following questions were posted in another thread, but thought it more appropriate to answer in this thread so, I brought them across.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Do you have a start date?

Easily worked back from the above post. The night of the 8th Of Feb 2009 I think.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:1. Have you noticed a change in feeling warm while in bed?

No, I have not noticed it yet. I am in Australia, and we recently just went from 40C to <20C overnight, so getting bed covering adjusted correctly is a bit of guesswork.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:2. Warm hands and warm feet now?

I am guessing you mean during the day? but no, see above for night.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:3. A little more energy and waking up a little more refreshed perhaps?

Can not say anything noticeable.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Changes to look for: Increased nail and hair growth. Nails and hair becoming stronger.
Skin and muscle tone changes
Changes in spasm

To early, and am long due for a haircut now anyway. However, in the past 5 years, I have noticed some major changes in hair growth rate (I think, not measured). And I think I can associate these with my regularity and dosage in Omega 3 intake. ie The more i take, my Hairdressers comment on how quickly it has grown. Again, not carefully/strictly monitored.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Increased unfamiliar pain, described as shooting pains not always in the same place. This is important as it frequently follows that some regained function and / or sensitivity is likely within a few weeks.

Nothing to report. I think even before I started IBT I was slowly seeing improvement, as I now understand MY "pattern" of the disease for ME better. And I work at rehabilitation/exercise. But I think I am very sensitive to changes in my condition.

AndrewKFletcher wrote:Remember, IBT is a slow steady process that over a 4 month period has been shown to significantly improve symptoms related to multiple sclerosis.

Its going to be hard to physically switch my bed back to normal, so my procrastination should help me "stick" to it for a while. As I also told you in the other thread, I am going to have Zamboni's test duplicated in about 5 days.

The other thread can be found at: http://www.thisisms.com/ftopicp-51530.html#51530

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:49 am

I was shown by my osteopath how the blood in the azygous vein travels against gravity up towards the base of the spine or is at least meant to go up rather than down. I think sleeping at an angle would make this even harder given the stenoses...

CureOrBust · Post by **CureOrBust** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:57 am

CureOrBust wrote:
AndrewKFletcher wrote:2. Warm hands and warm feet now?
I am guessing you mean during the day? but no, see above for night.

I can not say I have noticed any difference, but yesterday and today again, I went for medical tests, and a person on each day commented how cold my hands were.

gibbledygook, liquids can have a propensity to travel against gravity for a number of reasons, it is not the only factor involved. Its beyond the scope of this thread to go into it. But for a simple experiment you can try at home

, dip the corner of a paper towel in a pool of water, and you will notice that the water actually moves against gravity and rises up the towel, further than was below the water surface. This is just one example, there are others.

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:51 am

Sorry I meant to say that the blood moves against gravity up the spine towards the base of the brain stem! The dynamics of fluids are very interesting. I still am not sure about the idea of tilting one's head up at night because, notwithstanding the dynamics of fluids, with the blockage in the azygous and the dilations upstream, I'm sure it would create greater reflux. I might try the opposite and remove my pillows which have tilted my head above my feet throughout my life.

Post by **jimmylegs** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:53 am

i read a bit on this when the stenosis thing came to light, i think it's about different veins having precedence depending on position ie prone vs standing. and since blood pressure is lowest when lying, mid when sitting, highest when standing, sounds like the inclined idea is going for increased pressure to fire everything through the system.
it's also handy to be well hydrated. thinking along the lines of blood viscosity, i just googled hypercoagulation deficiency. turns out your blood can be thicker in hyperhomocysteinemia, and in protein deficiency, both with interesting links to vitamin b12. b12 is found in food sources of animal protein, and low b12 also can mean elevated homocysteine levels. in outright b12 deficiency, the blood cells get enlarged which you might imagine would slow things down a bit. i imagine there's a descending range of b12 levels where the cells are getting gradually slightly larger, but when things get to a tipping point the cells get 'significantly' bigger and the doctors says okay NOW you're deficient

in the blood pressure vein (hyuk hyuk) found this interesting syphon abstract too:

Whether gravity challenges blood supply to the brain in standing man is a much-disputed topic in physiology. Burton (3) stated that "it is no harder in the circulation for the blood to flow uphill than downhill" and "differences in the level of different parts of the vascular bed do not in any way affect the driving forces for flow and so do not directly affect the circulation" (3). The prerequisite for the existence of a vascular siphon is a continuous column of blood in both the arterial and venous limbs of the loop; for the brain, a siphon could exist from the thoracic aorta via the filled cerebral veins where they leave the skull to the right atrium. The siphon concept implies that no work is done on blood to increase its gravitational potential energy because the pressure gradients are equal and opposite in direction in the ascending and the descending limbs of the loop. Studies addressing the possibility of a siphon include hydrostatic models using rigid and flexible tubing in a laboratory setup; animal studies, especially measurements in giraffes (as a model of considerable heart-to-head difference in height) and snakes; and human studies. We will discuss 1) the siphon concept and the supporting evidence; 2) the "vascular waterfall" and evidence that there is no siphon functioning in blood flow to and from the brain; and 3) based on recent advances, an integration of these seemingly controversial concepts and address the role of the brain itself as interruption of the siphon. The latter part of the discussion is limited to studies in humans.

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:01 am

As somebody who has fainted and know without question that lifting the head up post-faint causes yet more fainting, I dispute that statementby Burton! I think gravity definitely has an effect.
St John ambulance confirmed my belief in this by teaching me to lift up the legs of a person who has fainted to increase the blood supply to the brain.

Also if you hang your arms down by your sides the veins in the hands tend to dilate. Stick your hands in the air and the dilation disappears.

gibbledygook · Post by **gibbledygook** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:08 am

Maybe the inclined bed would work for those who have mainly cerebral MS and whose internal jugular is blocked. This drains downwards. I doubt it would work for me as I have mainly spinal problems.

Post by **jimmylegs** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:46 am

i have fainted too on getting out of bed, and it only happens when my blood pressure is really low. i think it takes the body a few seconds to adjust the pressure.
i don't know whether burton's statement is the main thrust of the research might be an idea to read the full text for findings, but i didn't

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:30 am

gibbledygook wrote:Maybe the inclined bed would work for those who have mainly cerebral MS and whose internal jugular is blocked. This drains downwards. I doubt it would work for me as I have mainly spinal problems.

The vascular doc who recommend this IBT for my hubby did so because his MS damage is mostly in the brain, and the doc assumed it would be his jugular vein that would show stenoses. Zamboni found that the majority of MS patients had stenoses in both their jugular and azygous veins, which would be a double whammy. Jimmy's right about position. I think this is why Jeff's legs become progressively painful during the day (pressure on spinal lesions) and pain free upon waking- and why he's quite foggy in the a.m. (pressure on cerebral lesions) and clearer as the day wears on.

I do know that exercise is helpful for any stenosis situation...and it is a vigorous workout which brings the most positive change. This is because the heart pumps blood thruout the system and energizes the entire body. The sad truth is that as MS progresses, it is more and more difficult to work the heart efficiently. IBT provides a slight workout for the heart thruout the hours of sleeping. It's more about working the pumping mechanism than gravity, and why cardiovascular exercise is so important. (Fainting after sitting is about the resting rate of the heart needing to respond to a sudden motion. The pump isn't primed...)

(Jimmy's info on hypercoagulation and lack of vit. B is what I referred to in my endothelial paper - a lack of B12 creates endothelial dysfunction thru excess homocysteine. Part of the puzzle.)

AC

Post by **jimmylegs** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:46 am

mag for the heart cheer!
explains why niacin helps too, it gets that blood firing around. good for more delivery of nutrients to starved tissues also.

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:01 am

jimmylegs wrote:mag for the heart cheer!
explains why niacin helps too, it gets that blood firing around. good for more delivery of nutrients to starved tissues also.

<3 <3 <3
Happy Valentines, JL!
(Can we have chocolates with our magnesium???)
Here's to firing hearts and flaming blood!
AC

Post by **jimmylegs** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:30 am

i hear cocoa is nature's largest natural source of magnesium!! LOL!
mmmmmmmm dark chocolate truffles, here i come

happy valentine's, cheerio

Post by **jimmylegs** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:33 am

that's funny actually, i eat raisins for potassium but i don't really like them much, so i get dark chocolate-covered ones... magnesium-covered potassium, the perfect combo lol!

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:48 pm

Gravity and circulation...like Cure says, it's a really complicated subject-

This abstract explains the idea of open loop circulation vs. closed loop-

In "open" systems gravity hinders uphill flow and causes downhill flow, in which the liquid acts as a falling body. In contrast, in "closed" systems, like the circulation, gravity does not hinder uphill flow nor does it cause downhill flow, because gravity acts equally on the ascending and descending limbs of the circuit. Furthermore, in closed systems, the liquid cannot "fall" by gravity from higher levels of gravitational potential to lower levels of potential. Flow, up or down, must be induced by some source of energy against the resistance of the circuit. In the case of the circulation, the pumping action of the heart supplies the needed energy gradients. Flow in collapsible tubes, like veins, obeys the same basic laws of liquid dynamics except that transmural pressures near zero or below zero reduce markedly the cross-sectional area of the tube, which increases the viscous resistance to flow.

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/conte ... 262/5/R725

But obviously, like Alex says, gravity has an effect on bloodflow....just do a headstand for ten minutes, and you'll feel the increased pressure of blood in the brain. And NASA has done studies showing how zero gravity changes the circulatory system in astronauts. The reason the vascular doc told us to lift the head of the bed was that he was afraid fluids might be "pooling" in Jeff's head while he was horizontal at night, due to a blockage in the jugular vein. He also recommended a daily aspirin.

I hope Andrew explains the studies he completed to come to his conclusions. I think he's on to something.
AC