the MS liver

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:34 am

Marie-
You're NEVER a pain...it's important to hear all sides of this story. I know Jimmy hasn't had any liver issues, either. Dim's wife is the only woman I've read about on the boards who has had elevated liver enzymes. The profile is typically men/larger body mass.

I've seen guys mention it on other MS boards, and no one ever has a good explanation. From what I understand, once patients are on interferon treatment, liver testing is de riguer. Not so much with copaxone. Our GP tests regularly now since Jeff showed up with high liver enzymes at MS diagnosis. But they've been fine since, and he's on more medication and supplements than before (he wasn't taking anything when the enzymes were high and he was jaundiced)...which is contrary.

Here is the high liver enzyme hit list....

Side effect of medication, such as certain nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), cholesterol medications, antibiotics or anti-seizure medications
Drinking alcohol
Obesity
Diabetes
Elevated triglycerides
Infection, such as viral hepatitis and mononucleosis
Autoimmune disorders of the liver and bile ducts, such as autoimmune hepatitis, primary sclerosing cholangitis or primary biliary cirrhosis
Metabolic liver disease, such as hemochromatosis or Wilson's disease
Excessive use of certain herbal supplements, such as kava, comfrey, pennyroyal or skullcap
Gallstones
Tumors of the liver, pancreas or bile ducts

Something that happened along with his first MS flare happened to his liver at the same time. What? Venous blockage? Iron buildup? EBV attack? There's a clue in all this-
AC

Post by **jimmylegs** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:45 am

i have not had a faulty liver enzyme test, but i didn't get them tested at the same time that my nasty zinc test came back. i figure, membranes are all over, and in some cases it's the intestines that suffer an imbalance first, in some it's the liver, or the bbb, etc etc. depending on what other factors are in the mix also.

wow mark, glad you're working to combat those metal levels!

small tip - to separate your own words from the quotes, use tags like this
[ q u o t e ] [ / q u o t e ] (without the spaces in between each character though)

eg

5) co-treatment with [zinc] protects against the renal toxic effects of [cadmium] preventing altered claudin expression and by inhibition of apoptosis. In conclusion, these results show that [cadmium] toxicity and cellular toxic mechanisms are complex, probably affecting both membrane transporters and tight junction proteins.

viper498 · Post by **viper498** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:56 am

I know it is late in the conversation to bring it up, but I am glad you guys are researching this possbile, plausible connection between MS and the Liver. I too have some wierd issue with elevated Liver enzymes, and I don't drink. I am overweight, but not HUGE. My doctor has no explanation. As well, I have fatty liver, which he also can't explain. I am 29 years old. That is young to have such issues.

Could it be a virus of some sort affecting the way the liver metabolises? Possible causing a defficiency?

Oh yeah, Hello to everyone, its been a while since I have posted on here.

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:04 am

viper498 wrote:I know it is late in the conversation to bring it up, but I am glad you guys are researching this possbile, plausible connection between MS and the Liver. I too have some wierd issue with elevated Liver enzymes, and I don't drink. I am overweight, but not HUGE. My doctor has no explanation. As well, I have fatty liver, which he also can't explain. I am 29 years old. That is young to have such issues.

Could it be a virus of some sort affecting the way the liver metabolises? Possible causing a defficiency?

Oh yeah, Hello to everyone, its been a while since I have posted on here.

Hey Brock,
Glad you stopped by! Hope you're doing OK. Jeff was tested for viruses at his dx, and nothing. I wondered the same thing at the time. I think it might be about a sluggish circulatory system, and an inability to clear things thru the hepatic system. Or it could be the liver is overwhelmed by inflammation, and becomes injured.

Have you tried changing up your diet or adding a milk thistle supplement to see if you can get your liver health back?
let us know what's new-
AC

mrhodes40 · Post by **mrhodes40** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:38 am

circulatory

Now you're talking! I wonder if people who have liver issues are of a certain type of MS? just curious its not necessarily so

PPMS is the pattern D of Zamboni's research. Pattern D includes lumbar vein issues and the azygous, which we already know is at issue drains the abdominal area in general, that's its main job, not draining the head
from wiki

one of a system of veins that drain the thoracic and abdominal walls; arises as a continuation of the right ascending lumbar vein and terminates in the superior vena cava

But the entire circulation of the liver is the main thing of the abdomen; the liver is the size of a football and all blood goes through there to be detoxified with every beat of the heart on its way to where it is going.

From wiki HERE

The hepatic portal vein (often simply portal vein) is a vein in the abdominal cavity that drains blood from the gastrointestinal tract and spleen. It is usually formed by the confluence of the superior mesenteric and splenic veins, and also receives blood from the inferior mesenteric, gastric, and cystic veins. The hepatic portal vein is a major component of the hepatic portal system, one of the main portal venous systems in the body.

Conditions involving the hepatic portal vein cause considerable illness and death globally. An important example of such a condition is elevated blood pressure in the hepatic portal vein. This condition, called portal hypertension, is a major complication of cirrhosis worldwide

The cause of cirrhosis is the portal hypertension, cirrhosis being "alcoholic liver".

I know actually a lot about that. The cirrhotic liver also backs things up behind it too, so that the esophogus ends up with gross vericosities...this can be a cause of death in the alcoholic person as when they rupture they can bleed all the way out.

What if there is a blockage in the azygous in just the right location so that it was backing up the liver and causing venous hypertension there that is mechanical in SOME people with MS???

Could that cause a false "alcoholic liver"? Like Cheers husby?

The location of the blockage would have to be in JUST the right place...that would be why it would not get all MSers. Could men be more prone because of genes to a certain location??

THAT is a good question for Dr Zamboni.

Edit to add that this was posted on the CCVI thread too and one of the researcher doctor's DID respond, bottom line: no, it is extremely unlikely

peekaboo · Post by **peekaboo** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:55 am

Wow! i am so impressed by all of you. My brain w/ or w/o ms could not keep up with all this information..I need to digest this wonderful data...

My last blood test (1mo ago) all my liver enzymes etc were in the normal range. I take Milk thistle to support my liver

Adreanl Glands...I take a supplement called Adren-all mfg by ortho molecular products to help lower that dreaded cortisol.

Post by **jimmylegs** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:22 pm

just ran across the study quoted below. i figure it belongs with this old liver topic. since i last posted here, i have continued to see good uric acid levels thanks to zinc supplementation, and my d3 absorption appears to have tripled. i used to take milk thistle (don't get me wrong, i still would) but it never had any effects like this!

i was re-reading viper's post about fatty liver too. there is a relationship between obesity (i know you're not obese but obviously there is a spectrum involved here!) and zinc deficiency "A relationship between zinc and obesity was first found in obese patients and obese mice (genetically and dietary obese) to that the obese had lower blood zinc levels than their lean controls, and the zinc level was inversely related to the degree of obesity."

there's also an interesting but confusing body of research out there, looking at zinc and fatty liver - but i haven't got my head wrapped around it yet.

Protective effect of zinc on liver injury induced byd -galactosamine in rats
Journal Biological Trace Element Research
Protective effect of zinc on liver injury induced byd-galactosamine in rats

Abstract The protective effects of zinc on liver injury induced byd-galactosamine (GalN) were investigated in rats in vivo and in vitro. Zinc supplementation (50 mg/kg/d) for 5 d of rats treated with GalN (1.5 g/kg, ip) could reduce their mortality rate, restore liver pathomorphological changes, maintain zinc content, inhibit the lipid peroxidation, hasten the protein synthesis, and improve liver function. In vitro, zinc supplement could abate the death of GalN-intoxicated hepatocytes, decrease malonaldehyde (MDA) content, and maintain reduced glutathione (GSH). It is concluded that zinc has protective effects on GalN-induced liver damage. Its effects may be owing to inhibition of lipid peroxidation and hastening of protein syntheses.

catfreak · Post by **catfreak** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:13 pm

Jimmy,

I have a friend that has been diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver because she has a fatty liver. Never drank or on a lot of meds. But she has been up and down on the scale for years. She has psoriosis (sp) and also had been diagnosed with diabetes not long before the cirrhosis diagnosis.

Cat

turtle_fi · Post by **turtle_fi** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:39 am

interesting topic, this one. my liver values in blood tests have been going up and down during the past years, maybe 10 years altogether. up values are not related to drugs or alcohol (have been banned both for some time to test).

they even took liver biopsy (horrible) few years back to find out the reason, but it revealed nothing. sometimes those values go down to normal. actually they did not find any cause for this, and judged it to be "maybe fatty liver, need to loose weight" -type of thing. i'm pretty sure those values keep on going up and down still, but i have just had the tests made when they are down.

would be very interesting to find the reason. what are the typical lab tests (lab test short names?) that should be checked for relations with zink deficiency?

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:51 pm

Hey guys-
I've since found the connection, at least in Jeff's case. Cerebral hypoxia (lack of oxygen in the brain) causes liver injury and a rise in liver enzymes. In Jeff's case, his first flare was after a week at high altitude with two closed jugular veins...a recipe for an MS flare with jaundice and high AST and ALT enzymes.
cheer

Post by **jimmylegs** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:42 pm

certainly sounds like it makes sense for jeff. in my case i've seen drastic improvements in liver function and pretty much stayed at the same altitude the whole time. cheer, did you ever have jeff's zinc level tested by the way?

Sneaky · Post by **Sneaky** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:04 am

you guys are awesome ... i've been lurking on and off for @ 1 1/2 years. so many things being mentioned here in the forums lately, and i feel thay are getting so close to finding 'the' anwer that i just needed to sign up and add my $.02.

'slightly elevated enzymes' here as well.

i feel this thing called ms is really a disease of the blood, more specifically, the flow and circulation. my head aches always coincide with the blood flow in the shoulders, neck and back of my head. my muscle twitching seems to tie to certain veins. constant back pain and stiff necks with regards to ccsvi and location ( and i feel that maybe more major pathways than just the jugs and az vein may be to blame ). my tinnitus can have a tie to bloodflow. muscle and joint pain can obviously be a result of bad blood/circulation/vein issues. having ibs for over 20 years, helps me imagine how the leaky gut, blood brain barrier infestation is achieved.

imo - leaky gut causes tainted blood.. tainted blood causes vein/circulation issues ... vein/circulation issues cause muscle, nerve and organ issues (including fatigue, weakness, brain fog etc.) ... these muscle, nerve and organ issues trigger an autoimmune response (because the body has to respond some how?) who knows, just thinking out loud.

on a side note, i'm not yet diagnosed, 40 year old male. i've been told 'musculoskeletal' issues, inflammation of the vertebrea, ENT told me of the possible 'low grade' MS? after a MRI of the brain due to the tinnitus, in march of 08. it's been recommended that i see at neuro, but not ready to walk that road yet.

on a side, side note, i'm now having second thoughts for a planned family trip to denver in december due to possible altitude implications

i just want to thank you guys again, as i'm sure there are many, many, many more lurkers out there like myself who find the info and posts on the site invaluable, but aren't ready to join just yet!

mike (sneaky)

Post by **jimmylegs** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 pm

welcome to the boards, sneaky

just found this:

The effects of dietary deficiencies of zinc and essential fatty acids (EFAs) or both on aspartate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT) were investigated in young growing rats. Four groups of albino rats were fed diets deficient in either EFA (4% hydrogenated coconut oil) or zinc (6 ppm) or both. The control diet was adequate in EFA (4% soybean oil) and zinc (100 ppm). The feeding trial lasted eight weeks and the activities of AST and ALT were determined in the liver and serum. EFA deficiency had no significant (p > 0.05) effect on liver AST. However, zinc and the double deficiencies depressed AST activity in the organ. Deficiencies of EFA, zinc and their combination depressed ALT activity in the liver significantly (p < 0.05) with a concomitant increase recorded in the serum. The data suggested alteration in endothelial permeability of the plasma membrane and thus leakage of membrane constituents in the tissue studied. It is therefore considered that these deficient diets may affect liver tissue negatively in view of the role of these enzymes in amino acid metabolism.

zinc status affects other membranes too, such as the bbb, intestinal wall (leaky gut), etc etc.

Post by **jimmylegs** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:04 am

cheer, did you ever have jeff's zinc level tested by the way?

cheerleader · Post by **cheerleader** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:46 am

jimmylegs wrote:
cheer, did you ever have jeff's zinc level tested by the way?

yes...sorry, missed the post. Last spring before stenting we did:
zinc-normal, B12-high, D3-high, FE-all normal, along with antiphospholid antibodies, which was normal. Liver enzymes were good, SED rate was good.
The only time Jeff has weird blood results was at his first flare (high AST/ALT, high SED)...and his nutritional/hormone/mineral levels have always been normal/high.
We'll get new blood results next month and I'll update-
cheer