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Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Posts: 282 Location: Durango, Co
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: lets move South
Hi All,
If Northern latitudes contribute to MS and Equatorial climes have virtually no MS, what happens when someone with MS moves South? There must be research dealing with this question. My question is a bit self serving, I just spent 10 days near Belize, it was very hot and humid and I have not felt better in 2 years. I literally had a pre-MS life for 10 days. I'm back and so are my issues. Could be psycho symatic but I'm ready to move!
Anyone have thoughts. I could rent a bus.
Lars
wooooo hoooooooo let's go! can it be somewhere with high enough mountains for a bit of snow though
so do u think it was heat, or sun that made you feel good?
Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Posts: 282 Location: Durango, Co
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject:
Jimmylegs,
Funny you should mention the mountains and skiing. I have made myself crazy trying to figure out why Colorado has one of the highest rates of MS. There are plenty of states farther North. I have become convinced that altitude is equally important. I have lived most of my life above 9,000 ft and in recent years above 10,000. I have spent my adult life climbing and skiing the high peaks of Colorado and have spent more than my share above 20,000. I have always been convinced of the connection. As to the trip South, I was sure the heat would kill me and certainly never expected to feel better. My edss # has fluctuated between 3 and 5 for 2 years and have forced myself (against my body's will) to do as much as I can. On this trip I walked the mile trip to the nearest village for meals three times a day and explored the area without problem. It's been a long time since I have done anything without "problem". I don't have a clue why but I want to find out. You know there are a lot of high peaks around the equator with plenty of snow. You ready?
Lars
sounds like fun times! that is strange though - i thought the high altitude places were some of the islands of lower MS incidence. now i shall have to review
10,000?!! i think i've spent most of my life between about 100 and 800 :S boooo hehe with various exceptions out west
well i won't deny that i'm feeling due for a vacay of sorts but the heat and humidity just moved in here for the summer - i probably should finish this pesky degree - grrrrrrrrrrr - so i can get a job in those equatorial mountains at some stage
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 680 Location: southern California
Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject:
Hey Lars-
Maybe higher air pressure and oxygen levels at sea level were giving you an energy boost? I know there are many believers in hyperbaric oxygen for MS treatment.
"When we breathe in air at sea level, the atmospheric pressure of about 14.7 pounds per square inch (1.04 kg. per cm.2) causes oxygen to easily pass through selectively permeable lung membranes into the blood. At high altitudes, the lower air pressure makes it more difficult for oxygen to enter our vascular systems. The result is hypoxia , or oxygen deprivation."
http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_3.htm
Glad you had a great vacation and respite from your symptoms!
AC _________________ Husband diagnosed RRMS March 2007
pursuing endothelial healing
Copaxone, Swank, supplements, laughter
I don't think this would be the cause or one of the most important causes. My daughter spend all her life near the see in Spain going to the beach 3 months every year and he has her diagnostic of MS at 20 years old. I think virus's theories are more in the way.
I think is not one case fits all, viruses may contribute to the illness as climate conditions, nutrition, habits, stress etc, my wife as long as I remember her has had problems with her throat-pharynx with mild to high fever so her case has virus origin but other factors may triggered the MS!
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: Who knows
I live about 50 miles from the Gulf of Mexico and trust me it's hot and humid. We seem to stay under a high pressure also as AC said. I really don't know what caused my ms but when I was younger around 17 I had a really bad case of mono, that coulped with the red hair and fair skin. I guess I fit right in the middle of what I consider "doomed to have ms" Also have birthday in May. Glad you had a good trip
Joined: Sep 12, 2006 Posts: 877 Location: Dayton, Ohio USA
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:47 am Post subject:
Lars,
You can read my post about something similar in a thread about Terry worrying about her upcoming Florida vacation. Now granted this was three years ago and I was doing better, but I also, after I got acclimated, felt better in Florida than I did in Ohio and we aren't up in the mountains. I think it was the sunshine. It's going to be 92, sunny and humid today and I'm sunbathing! I hope I can deal with it. It's going to be a scorcher today. _________________ "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun.'"
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3403 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Re: lets move South
Lars wrote:
If Northern latitudes contribute to MS and Equatorial climes have virtually no MS, what happens when someone with MS moves South? There must be research dealing with this question.
Hi Lars,
I didn't want to be quick to rain on the parade but "MS migration data" is one of the most and longest studied MS data and the results have always proven somewhat opposite.
If someone moves from a low MS incidence area to an area of higher incidence before the age of 14, it seems that person shares the MS risk of the higher risk area they moved to.
I'm not absolutely certain, but I think one of the conundrums of trying to understand MS incidence data is that studies have shown that someone moving from a high risk area to a lower risk area before the age of 14 continues the higher risk of MS incidence through life.
If someone moves from a low MS incidence area to an area of higher incidence after the age of 14 (because it's averaged data) there is a tendency for that person to maintain through life the lower risk rate of the location they spent their childhood.
Sadly, if someone from a higher risk area moves to a lower risk area after the age of 14, before or after being diagnosed with MS, the data has shown no effect on their situation one way or the other.
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
Last edited by Lyon on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Diet change is my guess
Since a few personal suspicions for this seeming improvement in the Belize area have been expressed, I feel free to offer mine: diet. Lars, you must have been eating differently--fewer processed foods, few additives, more fresh foods, maybe fewer carbohydrates?
Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Posts: 282 Location: Durango, Co
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:29 am Post subject:
Bob,
Thanks a lot, I had my wife pretty much convinced. Pretty good theories here. Lyndacarol; I would agree with the diet thing except I have refined my diet to the point that I actually felt I was digressing on the trip. Cheerleader; I think your point may be valid. There is a wild card I hadn't thought of, BEER. I always thought it to be a cure all now I'm convinced. I still would like to hear a reasonable connection to Colorado's high MS rate. I have spoken to a lot of MS specialist about it and across the board they seem to concur that there is no altitude connection. From a climbing perspective, I know that altitude and latitude are connected i.e. a 20,000 foot climb at the equator = less mean altitude than a 20,000 ft climb in Alaska. Always a question, seldom an answer.
Lars
Joined: Apr 21, 2008 Posts: 217 Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:15 am Post subject:
I love where I live. Couldn't imagine living elsewhere.
Now, with that said, I lived in Southern Ontario for the first 19 years of my life, where there's a lower incidence of MS than the Maritimes, where I live now. Funny, eh?
(Had to through in the mandatory Canadian eh for you!) _________________ Dx RRMS March 5, 2008.
Joined: May 04, 2006 Posts: 3403 Location: Mid-Michigan
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:
Hi Lars,
You've bumped headlong into one of the age old issues of MS (that things aren't always what they "seem") and the need for large clinical trials over long time spans in order to separate what "seems" from what "is".
Deriving data from averaging has been been a Godsend and is the source of the only valid information we now have, but we also have to be constantly mindful of the downsides of averaging data
As you mentioned, Colorado has high MS incidence for it's latitude, but considering that MS incidence figures are averaged by state, notice that Colorado incidence levels are in line with Nebraska and Wyoming and kind of makes you wonder if the map was adjusted for latitude AND elevation AND incidence averaged county by county rather than statewide, would the figures smoothly merge with Nebraska and Wyoming?
The point is that it's important to keep in mind that the seeming conundrum regarding disproportionately high Colorado incidence could easily be nothing more than the downside of averaging incidence data.
Bob _________________ Wife diagnosed with MS in Feb. 2006 and is a participant in the Tovaxin IIb clinical trial.
Last edited by Lyon on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1997 Oct;216(1):21-7.Links
Vitamin D and multiple sclerosis.
Hayes CE, Cantorna MT, DeLuca HF.
Recently, it has been clearly demonstrated that exogenous 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, the hormonal form of vitamin D3, can completely prevent experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE), a widely accepted mouse model of human multiple sclerosis (MS). This finding has focused attention on the possible relationship of this disease to vitamin D. Although genetic traits certainly contribute to MS susceptibility, an environmental factor is also clearly involved. It is our hypothesis that one crucial environmental factor is the degree of sunlight exposure catalyzing the production of vitamin D3 in skin, and, further, that the hormonal form of vitamin D3 is a selective immune system regulator inhibiting this autoimmune disease. Thus, under low-sunlight conditions, insufficient vitamin D3 is produced, limiting production of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, providing a risk for MS. Although the evidence that vitamin D3 is a protective environmental factor against MS is circumstantial, it is compelling. This theory can explain the striking geographic distribution of MS, which is nearly zero in equatorial regions and increases dramatically with latitude in both hemispheres. It can also explain two peculiar geographic anomalies, one in Switzerland with high MS rates at low altitudes and low MS rates at high altitudes, and one in Norway with a high MS prevalence inland and a lower MS prevalence along the coast. Ultraviolet (UV) light intensity is higher at high altitudes, resulting in a greater vitamin D3 synthetic rate, thereby accounting for low MS rates at higher altitudes. On the Norwegian coast, fish is consumed at high rates and fish oils are rich in vitamin D3. Further, experimental work on EAE provides strong support for the importance of vitamin D3 in reducing the risk and susceptibility for MS. If this hypothesis is correct, then 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 or its analogs may have great therapeutic potential in patients with MS. More importantly, current research together with data from migration studies opens the possibility that MS may be preventable in genetically susceptible individuals with early intervention strategies that provide adequate levels of hormonally active 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 or its analogs.
these guys correlate it to latitude not altitude or other factors... i have the full text of this one if anyone wants - the abstract didn't match the title for me so i had to get into it a bit further..
J Chronic Dis. 1983;36(:551-9.Links
Epidemiology of multiple sclerosis in U.S. veterans: 2. Latitude, climate and the risk of multiple sclerosis.
Norman JE Jr, Kurtzke JF, Beebe GW.
An analysis of ten climatic factors and elevation for the counties of birth of 4371 U.S. white male veterans with multiple sclerosis and matched controls has been made in relation to birthplace latitude. The climatic factors include an air pollution index, concentrations of minerals in ground water, measures of annual solar radiation, both in energy per unit area and in hours of sunshine, mean annual periods of high and low temperatures, and measures of annual rainfall and average humidity. These variables all significantly influence the risk of multiple sclerosis when analyzed alone, but when they are adjusted for latitude, their effect is found to be due to their correlation with this variable.
i'm working on getting the full text for this next one, because the google search mentions altitude but it's not reflected in this abstract:
Does Immunosuppressive UV Radiation Explain the Latitude Gradient for MS?
Multiple sclerosis is regarded as an autoimmune disease. The autoimmune process is thought to be triggered by early-life exposure to viral/bacterial antigens that share key peptide sequences with myelin protein (the target of autoimmune attack in multiple sclerosis). It has long been known that the incidence of multiple sclerosis is positively correlated with latitude, particularly in Caucasian populations. There is no agreed explanation for this latitude gradient, however. Ultraviolet radiation level is negatively correlated with latitude. Recent evidence suggests that ultraviolet-B is immunosuppressive, affecting particularly T-cell activity and delayed-type hypersensitivity. We hypothesize here that the latitude gradient of multiple sclerosis may reflect differential ultraviolet suppression of autoimmune activity, particularly since the autoimmune profile of multiple sclerosis is characterized by disturbances of those T-cell-related activities that are specifically affected by ultraviolet-B. We propose toms specifice tests of this hypothesis.
anyway. i'll keep trying. that's enough digging for now better do some of my own work hehe
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