Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:46 pm

If 5000IU D3 per day does not work then co-factors need to be considered.
nope: "d3 will rise to some extent with supplementation, even when cofactor status is suboptimal. it's not an on-off switch. asserting that people only need to worry about co-factors if their d3 levels don't rise with supplementation is misleading and troubling."
re
But I don't see testing as a sine qua non of taking vitamin D.
and
what do you advise if the pwMS cannot get/afford the desired tests. Answer A or B please.
nope, not dancing to that hyperbolic, dichotomous tune. i've already specified what can be done. recall:
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic14805-720.html#p224328
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic14805-750.html#p224407
You say the notion of not worrying about co-factor levels is "misleading and troubling." Can you elaborate please?
certainly. the suggestion that patients shouldn't worry about other nutrients unless d3 refuses to rise with supplementation, is misleading and troubling given the known constellation of essential nutrient issues for pwms, and those with chronic illness in general. the fact that b12 is established and d3 is the flavour of the month doesn't mean other *essential* nutrients should be ignored.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:51 pm

interesting variation in apparently healthy individuals:

Low Vitamin D Status despite Abundant Sun Exposure
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2006-2250
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby muse » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:02 pm

Dear Mark, I’m not going to run in circles with you, sorry. Your argument that poor UK “MS”ers can’t effort proper testing (~50-100bucks) etc. before ruining their health completely is just ridicules and it makes me kind of speechless too.
Anyway, I’ve done my homework regarding Mg-Ca-HormoneD methbolism and I get my knowledge from people who are working in the field since decades and have written books on the topic and not from TIMS or FB buddies.

Not just for that reason I will share what I’ve learned from them widely and warn everyone who wants listen against this insane “Vitamin”-D brainwash.
You should start doing your homework in pure science/biochemistry (Ca/Mg/HormonD & Zn/Cu) as well instead pushing Hormone D in people who are most likely already a complete Mg-deserts because they are chronically ill for ages.
Try to get over you cognitive dissonance, Mark. It could save not just your life.

No offence!
Arne
Last edited by muse on Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"MS" doesn't exist! - CCSVI dx Nov.2009, 1. angio LVJ & RVJ June 2010, 2. angio RVJ April 2011, January 2012 2. restenosis, reversed after ~1 year intake of high dosage Magnesium only. ThisIsCCSVIinMS: http://tinyurl.com/nwy5x58
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Squeakycat » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:57 pm

Part of the issue in this discussion is the characterization of the vitamin D dose as high when at least in evolutionary terms and what the body sets as the upper limit, it is not high.

I have been arguing that we should look at this issue in the calcitriol + D3 trial and have raised the issue with six research teams involved in major vitamin D in MS trials.

These are people with decades of research on vitamin D and MS and none are open to the idea that co-factors are an issue with vitamin D supplementation in MS, not even calcium where I can make the case that calcitriol acts almost completely through calcium.

Agree that people should be aware of the potential problems. Support the notion of getting testing where cost is not a factor, but overall, I think it is going to take some solid epidemiological research to establish that there are deficiencies that are clinically relevant to vitamin D supplementation. I don't see that yet in J-legs citations beyond some studies involving very few people.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:29 pm

recall: Magnesium, vitamin D status and mortality: results from US National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) 2001 to 2006 and NHANES III
we limited our study population to 12257 participants
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Squeakycat » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:36 am

jimmylegs wrote:recall: Magnesium, vitamin D status and mortality: results from US National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) 2001 to 2006 and NHANES III
we limited our study population to 12257 participants

The study provides important findings concerning POTENTIAL (emphasis added) metabolic interactions between magnesium and vitamin D and its clinical relevance. However, results should be considered preliminary since biochemical data on individual magnesium status were lacking, confounding cannot be excluded and questions on the dose?response relationship still remain to be answered.
Source URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854088/
PMID: 24228832
DOI: 10.1186/1741-7015-11-229
Journal Title: BMC Medicine
Journal Date: 2013
Journal Volume: 11
Journal First Page: 229
Abstract URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... t=abstract
Article Title: Magnesium deficit ? overlooked cause of low vitamin D status?
Article Authors: Armin Zittermann

NHANES did not measure Mg levels, just surveyed intake. It found that high reported intake levels corresponded with high vitamin D levels. That could well be because people whose diet provides high levels of Mg also have high levels of vitamin D from diet and a healthy life style without in anyway being related to the metabolic interactions between Mg and vitamin D. Of course, there could be metabolic interactions so well worth further study, but not in anyway proof of that as noted in Zittermann and several other comments on Deng et alia, the original study of Mg and Vitamin D using the NHANES data.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:58 pm

serum mag, rbc mag, and serum ionized mag all respond to dietary intake.

also

Determinants of vitamin D status in patients with hip fracture and in elderly control subjects13
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/46/6/1005.full.pdf
Sunshine score and dietary and biochemical data from 125 patients with hip fracture and from 74 elderly control subjects
............................................control subjects...........patients
Vitamin D intake (IU/d).....................114 ± 44...........116 ± 63
Magnesium (mmol/L).......................0.82 ± 0.07........0.76 ± 0. 12
25-hydroxyvitamin D (nmol/L)...........32.9 ± 13.6........18.5 ± 10.6
l,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (pmal/L)........105 ± 31..............79 ± 46

fyi, side topics related to mag and zinc interactions here:
where we left off regimens-f22/topic24081-45.html#p224652
from the top regimens-f22/topic24081.html
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Estradiol and Testosterone in MS

Postby Squeakycat » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:20 pm

Posting this here because estradiol and testosterone are, like vitamin D, secosteroids that interact. It may be that the benefits being found in recent studies are the result of this interaction with calcitriol, the bio-active form of vitamin D. (I don't know that. I'm just speculating that this may be the case since I know all three are secosteroids and that they interact in various way.)

A presentation on Estradiol + Copaxone at the AAN meeting is getting a lot of press, but probably because Teva is promoting it. The same research group recently published a paper on testosterone alone, no DMD, which showed significant benefit. I would guess this is probably true for estradiol and ultimately, it may be true for calcitriol if as I suspect, the effect is somehow mediated by the interaction of the secosteroids.

Source URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24634831
PMID: 24634831
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.nicl.2014.03.001
Journal Title: NeuroImage. Clinical
Journal Date: 2014
Journal Volume: 4
Journal First Page: 454-60
Abstract URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2463 ... t=abstract
Article Title: Neuroprotective effects of testosterone treatment in men with multiple sclerosis.
Article Authors: Florian Kurth,Eileen Luders,Nancy L Sicotte,Christian Gaser,Barbara S Giesser,Ronald S Swerdloff,Michael J Montag,Rhonda R Voskuhl,Allan Mackenzie-Graham

Neuroimage Clin. 2014 Mar 6;4:454-60. doi: 10.1016/j.nicl.2014.03.001. eCollection 2014.
Neuroprotective effects of testosterone treatment in men with multiple sclerosis.

Kurth F1, Luders E1, Sicotte NL2, Gaser C3, Giesser BS4, Swerdloff RS5, Montag MJ4, Voskuhl RR4, Mackenzie-Graham A1.
Author information

1Department of Neurology, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los Angeles, CA, USA ; Brain Mapping Center, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los Angeles, CA, USA.
2Department of Neurology, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los Angeles, CA, USA ; Department of Neurology, Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles, CA, USA.
3Department of Psychiatry, Jena University Hospital, Jena, Germany ; Department of Neurology, Jena University Hospital, Jena, Germany.
4Department of Neurology, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los Angeles, CA, USA.
5Department of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute, Torrance, CA, USA.
Abstract

Multiple sclerosis (MS) is an inflammatory and neurodegenerative disease of the central nervous system. While current medication reduces relapses and inflammatory activity, it has only a modest effect on long-term disability and gray matter atrophy. Here, we have characterized the potential neuroprotective effects of testosterone on cerebral gray matter in a pilot clinical trial. Ten men with relapsing-remitting MS were included in this open-label phase II trial. Subjects were observed without treatment for 6 months, followed by testosterone treatment for another 12 months. Focal gray matter loss as a marker for neurodegeneration was assessed using voxel-based morphometry. During the non-treatment phase, significant voxel-wise gray matter decreases were widespread (p≤ 0.05 corrected). However, during testosterone treatment, gray matter loss was no longer evident. In fact, a significant gray matter increase in the right frontal cortex was observed (p≤ 0.05 corrected). These observations support the potential of testosterone treatment to stall (and perhaps even reverse) neurodegeneration associated with MS. Furthermore, they warrant the investigation of testosterone's neuroprotective effects in larger, placebo controlled MS trials as well as in other neurodegenerative diseases. This is the first report of gray matter increase as the result of treatment in MS.

PMID:
24634831
[PubMed]
PMCID:
PMC3952353
Free PMC Article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmid/24634831/

Adding Estriol Reduces MS Relapse Rate
Pauline Anderson
April 30, 2014
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby grandsons4 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:00 pm

Squeakycat, glad to see you're posting. Teva also funded a study that showed minocycline used in conjunction with Copaxone resulted in "a 63-65% reduction in MRI lesions compared to the Co group, and a greater reduction in risk of relapse (54%, 0.19 vs 0.41)." No surprise here that there has been other research suggesting minocyline alone benefits pwMS. The main purpose of my posting, though, is that my son appears to be benefiting from his chosen course of treatment: vitamin and mineral supplementation, inosine, LDN, Terry Wahls style diet, and (following Lyme-positive testing via Igenex) abx, including minocycline; no DMD's. Supporting our guarded supposition that he is indeed benefiting is his most recent brain MRI, which showed significant shrinkage (right term?) of the lesions; and minimal symptoms. Aware that lesion activity appears to be less a marker of long-term prognosis than gray matter health, the one adjustment to his current protocol that together we strongly believe would be prudent is the single high-dose calcitriol/plus D plan. Since we last communicated, has there been established a recommended dosage for the calcitriol? We believe his current doctor would be amenable to prescribing a single high dose. Thanks.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby MarkW » Wed May 07, 2014 7:20 am

I was amused by your condescending statement below. Instead of replying I went back to topping up my Vit D3 levels on a sun-lounger in Spain. My advice, like that given by Squeakycat, is taken from peer reviewed journals, a much more reliable source of data than 'books'. I do my 'homework' in Oxford's Bodleian libraries, and am certain of the advice I give.
I am not in the group you call "poor UK “MS”ers" being in the top quartile of UK incomes. However, I collect journal data,
which is shared on this thread for those in UK and much of Europe, not as fortunate as me. You say I am ruining my health but I do not understand how you have any knowledge of my Vit D3 and co-factor levels, nor the supplements I take. In fact you do not say what a minimum serum level should be for pwMS, a really shameful hole in your argument.
muse wrote:Dear Mark, I’m not going to run in circles with you, sorry. Your argument that poor UK “MS”ers can’t effort proper testing (~50-100bucks) etc. before ruining their health completely is just ridicules and it makes me kind of speechless too. Anyway, I’ve done my homework regarding Mg-Ca-HormoneD methbolism and I get my knowledge from people who are working in the field since decades and have written books on the topic and not from TIMS or FB buddies.
Arne

muse wrote:..................warn everyone who wants listen against this insane “Vitamin”-D brainwash.....Arne

You are entitled to warn people as you see fit. Time will tell if Vitamin D3 levels or magnesium are the bigger issue for pwMS. After careful consideration of the evidence, my advice remains that the first step for pwMS is to raise your Vit D3 in blood to 125 to 150nmol/L by taking 5000IU per day. If this does not achieve the desired results, then consider co-factors, not just magnesium.
MarkW
Mark Walker - Oxfordshire, England. Registered Pharmacist (UK). 11 years of study around MS.
Mark's CCSVI Report 7-Mar-11:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8359854/MS-experts-in-Britain-have-to-open-their-minds.html
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 07, 2014 11:37 am

i repeat:

Determinants of vitamin D status in patients with hip fracture and in elderly control subjects13
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/46/6/1005.full.pdf
Sunshine score and dietary and biochemical data from 125 patients with hip fracture and from 74 elderly control subjects
............................................control subjects...........patients
Vitamin D intake (IU/d).....................114 ± 44...........116 ± 63
Magnesium (mmol/L).......................0.82 ± 0.07........0.76 ± 0. 12
25-hydroxyvitamin D (nmol/L)...........32.9 ± 13.6........18.5 ± 10.6
l,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (pmal/L)........105 ± 31..............79 ± 46


teasing out the 'sunshine score' element of this article, i note the following with interest:

control subjects with low sunshine scores have serum 25(OH)vitd3 levels averaging 24.3 ± 9.1 nmol/L, while patients with similarly low sunshine scores have MUCH lower serum 25(OH)vitD3 levels, averaging 13.3 ± 5.7 nmol/L... this despite the patients having slightly higher average vit d3 intake overall. the dynamic is repeated when you compare patients and controls with intermediate and high sunshine scores.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby THX1138 » Wed May 07, 2014 12:13 pm

I like this webinar: http://truttmd.com/who-the-heck-is-paul-offit/

The webinar is divided into three sections, and you can fast forward to the section you want.


The first 25mins is about multivitamins.

Minutes 26-40 are about curcumin, with an update on the prior post I wrote about Longvida

and from minute 41 onward I talk about Vitamin D, and why I don’t like to see blood levels above 40.

- See more at: http://truttmd.com/who-the-heck-is-paul ... R6OZa.dpuf
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby Squeakycat » Wed May 07, 2014 12:54 pm

THX1138 wrote:from minute 41 onward I talk about Vitamin D, and why I don’t like to see blood levels above 40.

- See more at: http://truttmd.com/who-the-heck-is-paul ... R6OZa.dpuf

There are a number of criticisms of the conclusions drawn by IOM from the NHANES all cause mortality data, particularly the emphasis on "increased levels of mortality" above various levels of 25OHD.

The one that I think is most relevant is that these are general population studies in most cases, not pwMS who may in fact require higher 25OHD levels as suggested by a number of studies which show lower rates of relapse from higher levels of 25OHD.

I don't think there has yet been a good study of this in MS so I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that we know with certainty which levels optimal in MS.

There are a number of other issues involved here. You can have high levels of 25OHD, but if conversion of 25OHD is blocked as Hayes has found in her EAE studies, then that level is irrelevant.

The recent studies of estriol in MS may also be telling us something given the much higher incidence of MS in women. Still to be proven, but it appears that low estrogen levels trigger the over expression of CYP24A1, the enzyme that degrades calcitriol, the bio-active form of vitamin D. You may have high levels of 25OHD, but if there is an estrogen deficiency, the calcitriol being produced may well be degraded making it less effective in immune modulation and control, independent of 25OHD levels.

We have one small study, N=40 (approximately, I don't have the study at hand) which shows that as the disease progresses from no clinical signs of MS, through CIS and then clinically definite MS, 25OHD levels drop. This suggests that there may be a higher need for vitamin D with MS which would make recommendations of 25OHD levels for the general population, irrelevant.

Still, this does need further study. I don't think we can say with any certainty yet what levels are best for pwMS.
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Re: Vit D3>125nmol/L min in blood. FIRST SMALL STEP for pwMS

Postby jimmylegs » Wed May 07, 2014 2:06 pm

*cough* magnesium *cough* (etc...)
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Vitamin D and All Cause Mortality

Postby Squeakycat » Wed May 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Excellent new study on mortality and vitD levels

BMJ. 2014; 348: g1903.
Published online Apr 1, 2014. doi: 10.1136/bmj.g1903
PMCID: PMC3972416
Vitamin D and risk of cause specific death: systematic review and meta-analysis of observational cohort and randomised intervention studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3972416/

Conclusions Evidence from observational studies indicates inverse associations of circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D with risks of death due to cardiovascular disease, cancer, and other causes. Supplementation with vitamin D3 significantly reduces overall mortality among older adults; however, before any widespread supplementation, further investigations will be required to establish the optimal dose and duration and whether vitamin D3 and D2 have different effects on mortality risk.
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