Wahls diet discussion

A board to discuss various diet-centered approaches to treating or controlling Multiple Sclerosis, e.g., the Swank Diet

Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun May 27, 2012 5:37 am

trent and dc, have either of you had any nutritional bloodwork done?
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Sun May 27, 2012 7:24 am

Let me ask this are you drinking at least 1 liter of water a day of good filtered water. Do not drink reverse osmosis water. It leaches the calcium from your bones. This should make the detox ( if that is what it is pass faster)
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Sun May 27, 2012 7:45 am

hydration is certainly key!
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby lyndacarol » Sun May 27, 2012 9:45 am

dc10 wrote:
Here is my guess: The bitter, dark green leafy vegetables in the diet are detoxifying your liver; you have reduced your visceral (internal) fat; you are producing fewer cytokines, but your pancreas lags behind and is still producing too much insulin which results in insulin resistance in your skeletal muscles. In time, I think the insulin in your muscles will be flushed out and if you are consuming enough fat, your muscle cells will begin to use ketones for fuel (energy).

Did your walking, foot drop, and leg strength symptoms appear before your bladder problems? Perhaps improvement will come in reverse order.



thank you lyndacarol for your hypothesis , that does sound a possible reason,

from day 1 of the 100% wahls diet, both my bladder and mobility have worsened,
its just over the last 2 weeks, my night times bladder when asleep, is almost normal!


How much longer is it sensible to continue on the wahls diet, if my MS symptoms are still worse than before starting the diet?


How much longer…? I would say that you need to give it a fair trial. How long have you had these symptoms… How long do you think the MS has been developing? Maybe it would not be unrealistic to expect the same length of time for a diet to undo the symptoms. I am encouraged that you have seen such dramatic improvement in your nighttime bladder IN JUST OVER TWO WEEKS! I believe I read somewhere that Dr. Wahls saw her improvements begin after about three months – you seem to be ahead of schedule!
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby NHE » Sun May 27, 2012 12:42 pm

dc10 wrote:thank you lyndacarol for your hypothesis , that does sound a possible reason,

from day 1 of the 100% wahls diet, both my bladder and mobility have worsened, its just over the last 2 weeks, my night times bladder when asleep, is almost normal!

How much longer is it sensible to continue on the wahls diet, if my MS symptoms are still worse than before starting the diet?


That would likely be a good question for Terry Wahls.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Liberation » Mon May 28, 2012 6:02 am

stillfighting wrote:Does anyone ever wonder why so many of these "ms diest" are so far apart in theory.


I also tried to follow the Wahls diet, but I faced the same problems as Pesho did. It is very expensive to buy organic food and some of the vegatables that Dr. Whals talks about is just not present here in East Europe. Sometimes you can not find reliable organic source of vegetables and meat at all.

I was also in contact with Dr. Wahls, but she was not much helpful. As far as I know, she was gathering money to prove her theory with others, but I still can not see any results. I even offered my help that I would stick to her protocol and take part in her study.

I also have concerns that there are people claiming some success with so many different diet protocols, could it be true?

As for sugar, alcohol contains sugar. That is already poven that MS patients who regularly drink alcohol do better than those who do not consume. Another surprising element.

I have a feeling that 1 out of 1000 people who follow a specific diet claims a success and therefore concludes that their diet helpes conquer MS. But what about that 999 people who did not experience any positive impact???

Also do not forget that RRMS is very unpredictable. Even if you do not do anything you can achive great improvement or very very long remission. If Dr Wahls' case could be replicated with others that would be a great news.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 28, 2012 6:47 am

the bloodwork is the missing piece imho. you can diet all you want but if it isn't making a difference in your blood, then your body isn't getting the message. i know of only one ms patient who made great gains in certain serum levels, including documentation, with no appreciable change in symptoms. but, we can't get a good read on this person's zinc levels, it's too tough tp accomplish on their end. and for the same reason we can't feasibly dig any deeper. most other people, ms patients or otherwise, who report back to me including bloodwork (some without), report positive changes.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Mon May 28, 2012 9:11 am

I would place some emphasis that Wahls has 2 books 2 sell.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Mon May 28, 2012 9:39 am

lyndacarol wrote:How much longer…? I would say that you need to give it a fair trial. How long have you had these symptoms… How long do you think the MS has been developing? Maybe it would not be unrealistic to expect the same length of time for a diet to undo the symptoms. I am encouraged that you have seen such dramatic improvement in your nighttime bladder IN JUST OVER TWO WEEKS! I believe I read somewhere that Dr. Wahls saw her improvements begin after about three months – you seem to be ahead of schedule!


I have just learnt something new: I think i have Pilonidal Sinus

Last July i had a few weeks of a sore 'behind', the tailbone. This went after sitting on a doughnut cushion for a few weeks,
but now its returned, it must of started just before i started the diet.

i think this pilonidal sinus explains why my legs are worse, dont you think..
Looks like ive got another disease to attempt to treat, do you think the Wahls diet could treat it?
or does antibiotics and surgery seem the best option - i will seek medical advice, just wanted your opinion please

the conventional treatment is a few weeks of antiobiotics, then surgery to drain the sinus, then 6-12 months later symptoms re-aooear, do it all again!
relapses seem very common with pilonidal sinus

- im going to clean the sinus twice daily with surgical spirit wipes and apply tea tree cream twice daily to the sinus for its antibiotic properties then cover with a padded plaster..... until i learn more about the disease



i have had MS for 10-12 years, lets hope it wont take that long.
i also have eczema which ive had since being 2-3 years old, the eczema has also worsened since starting the diet, which si very peculiar as i was expecting the opposite!


- do you know if Dates (the dried fruit) are allowed on this diet, its my treat after a plate of veg

i dont want to bother Dr Wahls unless its something others here cant help me
thank you
Last edited by dc10 on Mon May 28, 2012 11:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby stillfighting » Mon May 28, 2012 10:55 am

While I don't know you or your situation I will take a stab at it. The main cause seems to be a hair in the offending area. This would need to be removed.
I see no way a diet could remove this hair. With that taken into consideration, I would choose surgery. Then again, that is what I would :) Why it reoccurs, would be beyond me. As the odds of a hair ever doing this again seem to me impossible.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 28, 2012 12:42 pm

dc, re yesterday's question re bloodwork, anything?
diet-f9/topic17276-210.html#p192481

in general if you are getting worse on this diet, my first instinct is to look for nutritional gaps in your personal interpretation of the guidelines. but first a relevant little tangent...

re the pilonidal thing - years ago i had a sore on my butt. on a completely unrelated tangent i had figured out i was zinc deficient and took steps. the sore which had remained open for years, healed spontaneously. awesome.

later, i had a sore at the base of my spine, more like what you're saying. i don't have the exact timing, but around that time i had taken to having zinc every other day instead of daily. i went back to daily zinc, because i noticed more susceptibility to infection. now that i'm back on daily zinc my back is healed up.

i have a co-worker that had a pilonidal cyst removed and it didn't heal for AGES. she is also having trouble getting pregnant. the whole situation just screams zinc but she's not one to buy in - so be it.

here's a study on using zinc .. after the fact :roll:

A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter trial evaluating topical zinc oxide for acute open wounds following pilonidal disease excision
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17014663
"...Sixty-four (53 men) consecutive patients, aged 17-60 years, were centrally randomized to either treatment with 3% zinc oxide (n = 33) or placebo (n = 31) by concealed allocation. Patients were followed with strict recording of beneficial and harmful effects including masked assessment of time to complete wound closure. Analysis was carried out on an intention-to-treat basis. Median healing times were 54 days (interquartile range 42-71 days) for the zinc and 62 days (55-82 days) for the placebo group (p = 0.32). Topical zinc oxide increased (p < 0.001) wound fluid zinc levels to 1,540 (1,035-2,265) microM and decreased (p < 0.05) the occurrence of Staphylococcus aureus in wounds. Fewer zinc oxide (n = 3) than placebo-treated patients (n = 12) were prescribed postoperative antibiotics (p = 0.005). Serum-zinc levels increased (p < 0.001) postoperatively in both groups but did not differ significantly between the two groups on day 7."

the reason this study is a joke, is the zinc oxide concentration. at least they did heal slightly faster than the placebo group via using the weak zinc oxide treatment. the topical penaten cream i used to heal my face when i wiped out, is 18% concentration. i healed at light speed according to my docs, fast even for facial healing (which is supposed to be pretty fast). with 3% concentration, every scrap would be going straight to dealing with the surgical trauma, none left over to hang around in serum. no wonder serum zinc levels were not significantly different between groups at the end of day 7! i ask you. what passes for science sometimes....

all that aside, they should have tried the zinc treatment at a decent concentration BEFORE the surgical intervention. just my 2c.

if you measure and address your zinc status, you may find these sores healing, and an improvement in your eczema.

and so, some questions:
1. are you supplementing zinc?
2. if so, how much?
3. do you also supplement vit d3?
4. if so, how much?
5. if you take both, how do you time them? together, or separate?

as for the diet, can you give me three typical days' intakes of foods and liquids?

an aside in case you're interested, re zinc deficiency in little ones, and 'periorificial parakeratotic lesions' (the other sore i had prior to the one in the pilonidal sinus location).

zinc treatment for the hereditary form:
Acrodermatitis enteropathica: case report and review of the literature
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12383101
Acrodermatitis enteropathica (AE) is a rare hereditary disorder caused by impaired absorption of zinc from the gastrointestinal tract. It is characterized by acral and periorificial dermatitis, alopecia, and diarrhea. Symptoms usually begin on weaning from breast or formula feeding. We report a full-term, 21-month-old boy with typical skin lesions and decreased plasma zinc level (12 µg/dl). The patient was given zinc sulfate 40 mg/day and at the end of 1 month his condition had improved significantly. After reviewing the literature we emphasize the important role of zinc in human metabolism and the difference between AE and acquired zinc deficiencies.

Acrodermatitis Enteropathica-like Dermatosis Associated with Ornithine Transcarbamylase Deficiency
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17845164
The urea cycle is the major metabolic pathway for excretion of waste nitrogen. Ornithine transcarbamylase deficiency is the most frequent urea cycle disorder. It is a hereditary-X-linked disease with over 150 mutations described (1).Ornithine transcarbamylase deficiency causes vomiting, lethargy, hyperventilation, and even death, mainly in the neonatal period (2). Ammonia, an extremely toxic molecule for the organism, is generated during protein catabolism and is accumulated in patients with this deficiency. Part of the treatment consists of a low-protein diet, to avoid hyperammonemia episodes, which can even have a fatal outcome. Patients can become deficient in several amino acids, either through the low-protein diet or directly through the primary enzyme deficiency; this in turn can cause an acrodermatitis enteropathica-like dermatosis.
(in both the hereditary and acquired contexts, this is a straight line zinc issue - when the zinc goes down, the urea cycle is broken and ammonia goes up. the low-protein diet idea is missing the point. you need protein, but you must have adequate zinc to make ornithine transcarbamylase. as noted in a recent abstract posted elsewhere ('the MS liver', i believe?), babies have wildly variable liver stores of zinc at birth. betcha these kids with hereditary AE have next to none..)

ooh how very wahlsian, the mitochondria made an appearance in this one:
Processing of pre-ornithine transcarbamylase requires a zinc-dependent protease localized to the mitochondrial matrix
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7046739
too bad, no abstract. but you see the point.
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Mon May 28, 2012 2:19 pm

JL, i have pm'd you the reply, to prevent overflowing this thread,

unless people would prefer me to publically write it
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby Trent » Mon May 28, 2012 2:35 pm

We're all in this together aren't we?
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby jimmylegs » Mon May 28, 2012 2:54 pm

okey dokey thanks dc. hi trent, same question to you from the top of this page - had any bloodwork done?
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Re: Wahls diet discussion

Postby dc10 » Mon May 28, 2012 3:35 pm

okay trent i will post the new copy here:

JL, thank you for this excellent detailed reply!
apologies for not replying to your message,

bloodwork: i haven't had any nutritional bloodwork done,

1. are you supplementing zinc? YES
2. if so, how much? 50MG
3. do you also supplement vit d3? YES,
4. if so, how much? 5000 IU
5. if you take both, how do you time them? together, or separate? I take both with my lunch

my current supplement dosing is:

After lunch:
Magnesium glycinate - 250mg
Zinc - 50mg
Omega 3 - 1000mg
Multidophilus Probiotic
Vitamins: B50
D3 - 5000IU
Dried kelp - 300mg

After dinner:
Magnesium gycinate - 250mg
Omega 3 - 1000mg
Vitamins, C - 1000mg
E (Natural) - 400mg
Selenium - 200mcg
Calcium - 600mg

Tomorrow i will increase my Zinc to 100mg, and add copper 2mg after dinner

Daily diet for last 5 weeks on the Wahls diet generally inculdes:

Breakfast - fruit smoothie, includes 4-5 different fruits excluding citrus , + nutritional yeast
+ flaxseed oil + spinach

Lunch - 1 cup of leafy greens, 1 cup of sulphur veg , 1 cup of colors + nutritional yeast + various seeds + mug of green tea

Dinner - Chicken or salmon + 1 cup of leafy greens, 1 cup of sulphur veg, 1 cup of colors + brewers yeast + various seeds

- i have a chicken bone broth three times per week, usually as a stew with the needed vegetables


As i eat alot of foods high in micronutrients, is taking all the supplements i do, beneficial?
im sure i get more zinc on this diet

thank you again JL, i now have some hope that i dont have this Pilonidal Sinus, hopefully
i have only assumed from my symptoms and the fact it returned 10 month later, that i do
based on the stories ive read of people constantly needing surgery and antibiotics, i dont want to go down this road

today i have started sitting on a doughnut cushion to alleviate the discomfort of the sore bump
sitting on the cushion removes all of the discomfort

is this a problem? can it affect anything adversely
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