A new concept and treatment options for MS

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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Leonard » Wed May 16, 2018 12:37 am

Scott1 wrote:
...
The tightness you have is collateral damage from MS but it doesn’t have to be permanent.
...


Thank you Scott for all your comments and the patience with me on the physiotherapeutical aspects and needs.

The one thing that intrigues me is your above comment.
You seem to see the tightness and with that in some way the progression of disability as collateral damage from MS.

Is this because you see the problem of how -over time- the EBV takes the genome and EBV B cell cross reaction as collateral to the MS process with the Zoster viral cause in the CNS and spinal as primary? With the latter detoriorating the neuroconduction in the head/spinal and the former weakening muscles strength and local muscle control? I could probably agree to such view.

Regards,

Leo
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Leonard » Wed May 16, 2018 1:47 am

The oxidative stress cycle could be more involved and complicated than just superoxide from EBV B cells as this article shows:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17191137

To place this in context: this is Ref 12 in Pall's publication on how can we cure the NO/ONOO cycle: http://nunm.edu/images/CE/cureabst.pdf

Where the mechanism described by Foxton et al (BG4 cycle) would be more a problem in the CNS than in muscles.
While for progressive MS patients, it would be more of an EBV problem in the muscles.

Any views welcome.
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Scott1 » Wed May 16, 2018 4:15 am

Hi Leo,

I'm not bold enough to say that's the definitive answer. In the link to Martin Palls article, the chart on page 2 has a box that points to iNOS. In his book that same box is full of cytokines (interferons, interleukins etc) which would be products of your explanation. So it would fit.

I do see tightness as collateral damage. I see demyelination in much the same way. Whether its permanent depends on what you do about the inflammatory cycle and how long it has persisted.

The first question should always be "what is supposed to be happening?" and I don't feel that gets asked very often. Nearly every pathway is ATP dependent.

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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Leonard » Mon May 21, 2018 5:02 am

Let’s draw this short D-tour on influences and superoxide generation to a conclusion.

The daily live of MS patients is affected by many influences including temperature; air pressure; oxygenation; supply of crude fuel. So there is not one, there are many. All will in some way have an effect on ATP production. Furthermore, besides intra-cellular there may be extra-cellular mechanisms such as calcium homestasis that affect patients.

I think the generation of superoxide in MS patients is mainly caused by EBV B cells. After 60 years of age, when the production of B cells wanes, half of MS patients stabilize. The BG4 cycle may add to the superoxide production, but I guess that may be more for Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease.

The thing that I fail to understand is why this vast neurological world with over 10,000 participants attending ECTRIMS/ACTRIMS has been so obsessed with demyelination and - after all these years - has not thought about the possibility of a failing ATP generation as the root cause for MS. And what to do about that.
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Leonard » Mon May 21, 2018 5:44 am

If you have the right physiotherapist who is used to treat MS patients, he can make you walk again. A significant part of MS progression is caused by muscle rigidity. Many years of neurodeficiency may have caused muscular stiffness and rigidity.

When the agonist gets tightened, the antagonist on the other side has to relax. Now if the signals to relax falter or are too slow, or because of cross talk due to demyelination, over a period of many years a situation will develop where muscles and/or antagonists get exhausted and/or stiff and get locked up. This may be aggravated by local neuromuscular deficiency caused by EBV B cells and oxidative stress.

I recently had the experience that after untightening my muscles, I found the nerve path is still there and that in fact I still have full control over my muscles. While I got completely dependent on a cane for the last 2 - 3 years, I could walk again as a normal person without a cane, for several hundred meters.
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Scott1 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:43 am

Hi Leo,
This recently published article fits with your recent discussion - https://scienmag.com/leg-exercise-is-cr ... em-health/

Regards.
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Zyklon » Thu May 24, 2018 7:23 am

GYM and resistance/strength training plays a major role for my health. I don't care about what my docs say about heavy training. It makes me feel good...
Pain! You made me a, you made me a believer, believer
Pain! You break me down, you build me up, believer, believer
Pain! Oh let the bullets fly, oh let them rain
My life, my love, my drive, it came from... Pain!
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Leonard » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:55 am

A few weeks ago, something really fantastic happened to me. For several hundred meters, I could walk normal again and without a cane. This has not happened to me for the last 2-3 years. I always went out with a cane and got completely dependent on it. Perhaps more importantly, the muscles in my hips worked and I could feel their ‘rotational’ movement needed for the gait. It was as if I could control my legs as in the old days.

In a way the experience was really weird and came by complete surprise while I was not conscious at that moment about the physiotherapy session that I had had the previous day. In fact, the day before I had seen a new physiotherapist who had treated MS patients for over 20 years. He stretched my legs and hips. It was not really very much more than a few rather basic movements, mainly stretches.

In the morning the legs were quite stiff but that's not unusual. Later that morning, I went out of the house to go to the back of the garden, and already in the kitchen I felt that my legs were different. I put on my shoes, took the cane and got going. But 5 meters on or so - this came totally unexpected - I told my wife who happened to be outside: it feels different. And I threw the cane away and walked like a normal person to the back of the garden and then came back.

This made me realize that the nerve paths are still there, that in fact I still have full control over the muscles in my hips and legs. I guess now my main problem is the rigidity of the muscles that has held me back and seems to even worsen over time. Is this what is progression, at least in part?

The physiotherapist said that many years of neurodeficiency may have caused muscular stiffness and rigidity. When the agonist gets tightened, the antagonist on the other side has to relax. Now if the signals to relax falter or are too slow, or because of cross-talk due to demyelination, a situation will develop where muscles and/or antagonists get exhausted and/or stiff and remodel. This situation may be aggravated by tightening muscles that squeeze significant nerves (Scott’s above posting), thinner/weaker neuromuscular paths caused by the oxidative stress cycle (EBV B cells) and of course the neurological trauma in CNS and spinal from earlier MS relapses.

The last MRI of my head suggests things are stable so no (new) inflammatory activity. There may still be a bit of oxidative stress left over from EBV B cells but above 60 years of age that may be expected to wane with time as well.

The important thing now would seem to be to work on the muscles, to get the right physiotherapy and muscular treatments. Scott’s remarks on muscular treatments in above postings would seem very appropriate and are well taken. I know now what I have to work on.

= = =

I share Scott’s view about muscular rigidity being collateral to MS. I know for us it feels like damage but I would not necessarily use the word damage as the phenomenon may be some sort of evolutionary compensatory mechanism in reaction to sustained nerve impairment. And with Scott, I think – and hope – that it is reversable.

Where the article in Scott’s above posting would seem to focus more on neurological health, I think that there is also an aspect of "muscular learning". Last night I saw a reportage on television called "The secrets of the human body" (you can find on YouTube). It was done by the BBC. It explained quite nicely how muscles of for instance tennis players adapt to the situation. I think that generally speaking there will also be some adaptation in elderly people where muscles get stiffer to compensate for the loss of... And for us there will be some 'compensation' for the many years of faltering signaling…

I would need to add another step (9) to the Skeleton to cover this new dimension of muscular blockage general-discussion-f1/topic15188-825.html#p251748
and with that I think we have a pretty complete picture of what is MS. It's now a matter of writing it all down.
Last edited by Leonard on Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Scott1 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:51 pm

Hi Leo,

I am glad you are finding a way through this. There are some people who do have quite profound problems with edema, muscle tightness and muscle weakness.

As part of the inflammatory process our ability to manage calcium is affected and that causes those problems.

In particular, the receptors on the post synaptic neurons called the NMDA receptor and AMPA receptor can play a part in a process called long term potentiation . This video explains it in the context of learning but you could apply the concept to skeletal muscle pathways. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vso9jgfpI_c&t=338s

In essence, the neural pathways will remodel themselves based on what is repetitively happening to them. The phrase is "fire together - wire together vs fire apart - wire apart". So the essence is you need to keep doing things that produce positive outcomes (such as exercise or movement). Blocking NMDA receptors with magnesium (possibly just through diet or with a supplement) can change long term outcomes. Of course, if you haven't addressed the causes of inflammation (EBV is a big one) then you are going to struggle.

That muscle tightness needs a ready supply of ATP to relax it but you may need to modulate calcium with magnesium as well. As my case is more extreme I control calcium with Dantrium. To get a positive benefit using that you need to move those muscles all the time otherwise you will feel very weak as the tightness fades.
Regards,
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Re: A new concept and treatment options for MS

Postby Leonard » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:34 am

The overall Skeleton remains fully intact general-discussion-f1/topic15188-825.html#p251748

The gut and HERV are factors that fit within this concept
general-discussion-f1/topic30226.html
general-discussion-f1/topic30161.html
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