This Is MS Multiple Sclerosis Community: Knowledge & Support

[Anonymoose]

Hey jimmy,
Cutting out the vitamin c supplement is working...took a few days to be sure. Weird. So, if my question about how to proceed was niggling at the back of your mind, tell it to quit niggling.

Appointment with neuro this week...dreading explaining of all of this to him as he'll likely blow it all off because my levels weren't very far out of normal range. : /

[jimmylegs]

yep to my eye the copper and zinc need to come up a looong way. say copper to 115 and zinc to 120. so if too much vit c is messing with that goal, definitely time for a change!

[jimmylegs]

http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/anemia ... on-testing
"If the serum iron and TIBC levels are low While UIBC is low to normal and ferritin levels are normal to high, the pattern is consistent with a chronic illness."

so, anemia of chronic disease. aka anemia of inflammation. from wikipedia / earlier TiMS discussion:

general-discussion-f1/topic13343.html#p130062
anemia of chronic disease
Serum iron - low
Transferrin & TIBC - low
TS - normal

sounds like that might be about right. so. conditions associated with anemia of chronic disease include infections, cancers, autoimmune conditions. http://www.med.unc.edu/medclerk/medsele ... nemia2.pdf

given that list alone, we know there's more to worry about than iron.

unpacking serum RBC magnesium a little, found this:
http://diabetes.org.in/journal/2002_oct ... ticle1.pdf
non-diabetic controls... RBC Mg 5.2+0.15 (mg/dl) ... Serum Mg 2.06+0.068 (mg/dl)

so, i don't like the looks of your RBC mag number, because it's lower than the control group in the study above, and even that control group had much lower serum mag status than we'd like to see in a truly optimal scenario. i'll have to dig around a bit to see if i can find more studies that measured serum mag and serum RBC mag at the same time.

going forward, if you can really work on the zinc, copper, and magnesium some more, that should help cut inflammation and associated iron issues...

i ran a nutritiondata search on foods highest in zinc, copper and magnesium. one guess which delicious item tops the list... (hint: next best option is veal liver mmmm!!)
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-w.html

[THX1138]

Dr. Dean recommends 6.0 - 6.5.

You can assess your magnesium status with a blood test called Magnesium RBC (red blood cell). This test is available to the public (without a doctor’s script) through Request A Test. But the kicker is that the range for this test is taken from the sick population so you want to be an optimum of 6.0-6.5mg/dL in a range of 4.2-6.8mg/dL. Do not let anyone tell you that a level of 4.4mg/dL is normal.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Dean/carolyn107.htm

[Anonymoose]

I'm not going to attempt to figure out why my mag is getting lower right now. I'm a big ball of overlapping wacky factors and I'll be metamorphosizing into a B cell factory in the next six months which will probably create its own set of problems. Don't think...just fix it. Lol.

My tibc and uibc were in normal range before the vitamin c disaster. I think the lows are transient and will correct as I optimize my iron and ferritin and quit messing up my copper activity with vitamin c.

I'm working on the iron, copper, zinc, and mag right now (d will have to wait for the sun because I know I have some hiding in me somewhere). I won't ever touch veal so don't hold your breath on that one. We need you around.

Thx 6.0 is my target for rbc mag...I'll probably get lazy at 5.8 though.

Did I ever mention that this nutrition stuff is a major pain in the rump?

[jimmylegs]

ok so 6.0-6.5 for rbc mag probably lines up quite nicely with 2.3-2.7 serum mag. good good good!

if you can get those minerals sorted, your body should be in good shape to process d3 when the sun comes out

yep, nutrition can definitely be some work, that's for sure. whatever you can swing with diet given your loathing of all things nutrient dense, will be great!

[lyndacarol]

going forward, if you can really work on the zinc, copper, and magnesium some more, that should help cut inflammation and associated iron issues...

i ran a nutritiondata search on foods highest in zinc, copper and magnesium. one guess which delicious item tops the list... (hint: next best option is veal liver mmmm!!)
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000 ... 000-w.html

On April 10, 2014, Roshini Raj, M.D. explained the Oligoantigen Diet, an extreme elimination diet used to end or reduce inflammation:

http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/famous- ... 3126651001

@2:35 she talks about food allowed on the two-week diet: after water, the second allowable group includes sunflower oil (which I thought CAUSES inflammation). When discussing meat @3:25, she says that all meat is allowed EXCEPT chicken and veal.

These two bits of information seem contradictory to me. Which is it? Veal helps cut inflammation or veal promotes inflammation? I am not sure that this Dr. Raj has things quite right.

[jimmylegs]

looks like raw sunflower seeds, sunflower seed butters, and high oleic acid sunflower oil is anti-inflammatory, while high linoleic sunflower oil and roasted sunflower seeds are pro-inflammatory.

meanwhile veal liver is listed as pro-inflammatory, but at the same time it is a rich source of anti-inflammatory nutrients.
http://inflammationfactor.com/look-up-if-ratings/

as usual, again it seems to be a matter of balancing. i'd take the veal for the nutrient density and just make sure it was balanced out with some good servings of dark leafy greens and sweet potato (anon's faves)

at the same time, the number one choice for high levels of anti inflammatory minerals was the ever popular OYSTER. oysters are powerfully anti inflammatory. om nom nom! i honestly think i may have to try the silly things, even though my levels are in good shape...

just for fun:
Clinical, immunological, anti-inflammatory and antioxidant roles of zinc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18054190
"Zinc is also an antioxidant and has anti-inflammatory actions. We have reported decreased plasma zinc, increased plasma oxidative stress markers and increased generation of inflammatory cytokines in the elderly subjects which were corrected by zinc supplementation."

[Anonymoose]

ok so 6.0-6.5 for rbc mag probably lines up quite nicely with 2.3-2.7 serum mag. good good good!

if you can get those minerals sorted, your body should be in good shape to process d3 when the sun comes out

yep, nutrition can definitely be some work, that's for sure. whatever you can swing with diet given your loathing of all things nutrient dense, will be great!

I like nuts and seeds and raw greens. Those are nutrient dense. So plltttt!! I'm starting to think of you as one of popeye's nephews...slurping down cans of cooked spinach.

[jimmylegs]

good stuff with the nuts and greens! pft nephews she says..

[Anonymoose]

Alright popeye, what do you think about magnesium water?
http://www.afibbers.org/Wallerwater.pdf

I'm worried about it interfering with absorption of other stuff if you have to drink it throughout the day. But maybe if absorption is that much better, you could just drink it once or twice a day. I dunno. Thoughts? Hocus pocus?

[jimmylegs]

if it were me, i might just try to pick out a natural product rather than make it. although i'm quite all right taking me glycinate pills and eating me greens, AHG-ug-ug-ug!

Mineral Content of Selected Commercially Available European Bottled Waters (mg/L)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... able/tbl4/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYK3Fz6pXnA

[Anonymoose]

Thanks. I think I'll stick with food and mag glycinate too. Can't wrap my head around having my water bottled and at about 8lbs/gallon shipped over from Europe...and all that means. Aren't any comparable US waters. On the homemade mag water, I think they inflated the perceived value of their recipe by comparing it to the absorption of mag oxide.

[jimmylegs]

kind of weird right? that NA mineral waters aren't as rich as european ones? but, so be it.
and, if i'm buying anything at the store, i figure mag glycinate is WAY more bang for the buck.

[THX1138]

Anonymoose have you tried topical magnesium ? Such as Mg oil or Mg foot soaks
I have found it to be way more effective than any kind of oral Mg.