1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

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1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:01 pm

September 30th 2017: Revised, Expanded, Updated

When I wake up in the morning I get severe, sudden muscle spasms mainly in my legs and back . This happens every morning. The interesting thing is the spasms don't happen until I move a part of my body, even a little bit. This morning I woke up too early and was tired. I kept yawning and with each yawn, the muscle spasmed. Sometimes even curling my fingers after waking up will set off the muscle spasms. So, I wake up in bed and then the very first movement I make, no matter how small, sets off the muscle spasms which are so strong they threaten to damage themselves. In less than 30 seconds the first spasm subsides but the muscles remain tight. After the first spasm is over, then I get ready to go through some more spasms. Which body part will I move this time? I reach my hands toward my head and pillow. This sets off more muscle spasms. After my legs and lower back have violently spasmed a number of times, then I can start to sit up in bed; this is difficult as my body wants to stay straight. While laying on my side, I get my legs over the edge of the bed and this helps me to sit up.
So basically I get strong, sudden muscle spasms that come on almost instantly after a movement (it takes less than a second) after moving most any part of my body.
The longer I sleep, the worse the spasms are when I finally move. If I get up after 3 or 4 hours in bed, the spasms often aren't that bad. But if I stay in bed for 7 or more hours, they are scary strong.

The muscle spasms when waking up started about 7 years ago. Then, they were short-lived and not very significant. 7 years ago I would wake up in bed and straighten my legs out while laying on my back. This would cause one of my legs to kick very rapidly three or four times in succession. That was all. I had much milder muscle spasticity back then and the muscle spasms when wakening and moving in bed were just a few kicks from the leg. This problem has gotten worse and worse over time. I was taking calcium and high dose vitamin D about 7 years ago.

These days, during the day, I have muscle tightness which keeps me from being able to walk unaided. If I don't eat enough or if I don't drink enough during the day this causes the muscle tightness to be a lot worse.

Interestingly, if I eat a good amount of food during the day and drink my usual gallon of water, by late evening the muscle tightness has become Far better, and I can even take a few steps unaided in addition to being able to get my feet about 8 inches off the ground (just not a the same time) instead of one of them often dragging.

Night or day, I have noticed that being still causes my muscles to tighten and to suddenly spasm stronger when I do move. These problems are much much worse when I wake up in the morning. Of course, then, I've been still for several hours.


A few times in the past, I rubbed magnesium oil on my forearm while laying in bed after waking in the morning. This made the muscles relax quickly. I haven't done it recently because it's messy and I can't afford to have slippery hands when I'm walking with the walker to the bathroom.
I am one of the people that is helped greatly by the (strong) niacin flush, for the 20 minutes or so that it lasts. My muscles lose much of their tightness during the flush.

I will add that I am chronically dehydrated even though I drink a gallon of NON reverse-osmosis water, mixed with 600 to 800 mg Mg from Natural Calm, per day.
Also:
I was diagnosed with pancolitis a little over a year ago.

Labs (I did at least a three-day washout for each of these.):

Mg, Reference range 1.6 - 2.3 mg/dL
8/12/14 --- 1.9
10/17/14 ---2.1
10/31/14 --- 2.2
2/24/16 --- 2.2
1/21/17 --- 2.0
1/22/17 --- 2.0
1/23/17 --- 2.0



Zinc, Reference range: 60 - 120 ug/dL
11/9/16 --- 80
8/18/17 --- 75

Copper, Reference range: 70 to 140ug/dL
11/9/16 --- 100
8/18/17 --- 96

I took Solaray Zinc/Copper (50mg zinc/2mgcopper) for well over 2 years, up until 3 months ago (when I started the Paleo AIP)

Thanks
Last edited by THX1138 on Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:22 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:37 pm

hey thx it's been a while!
sorry to hear you are experiencing continuing issues w spasticity. what's your day to day dietary and supplement regimen lately?
re existing labs, serum mag looks low - see if you can get it to at least 2.3. upper end of the reference range at my local lab is 2.7. just bc everyone else is low doesn't make it healthy :) take a break from natural calm maybe; see how you do with some magnesium glycinate. (mine are powder capsules delivering 180mg elemental mag)
how many mgs potassium are you achieving daily from diet?
do you have any other electrolyte results from regular bloodwork, eg showing serum sodium and calcium and potassium etc?
healthy control zinc levels are up closer to 120. at a minimum would be good to get serum zinc a bit higher than serum copper if you can. ideally serum copper zinc ratio is below 1. yours is closer to 1.3. while i wonder if any other intake could be negatively influencing retention?
interesting that 80 is your peak serum zinc level while on 50mg per day. ages ago now, mine went from deficient to 110 in a few months - but the doc had prescribed 100mg/d short term at the time, so not really comparable to 50mg per day over several years.
has a dietitian examined your day to day routine for adherence to recommendations for all essential nutrients?
related re dehydration, how's the fatty acid intake/status?
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:20 pm

JL, sorry, I forgot the Zn/Cu from another provider. I had taken 2 of the Solaray capsules per day and my Zn went up nicely in about a month, but went down when I cut back to 1 capsule per day:

Zinc Standard Range 0.66 - 1.10 mcg/mL

5/23/11 --- 0.85
2/4/14 --- 0.77
3/11/14 --- 1.09
4/23/14 --- 0.79

Copper Standard Range 0.75 - 1.45 mcg/mL
5/23/11 --- 1.08
2/4/14 --- 0.98
3/11/14 --- 1.03
4/23/14 --- 1.07




I stopped taking the Solaray brand of zinc and copper because the capsules were smelling rancid (probably from the rice flour). I contacted the company but they said they didn't know anything about it. I need to find another zinc copper supplement.

sorry to hear you are experiencing continuing issues w spasticity. what's your day to day dietary and supplement regimen lately?

probiotic 66 billion cfu 1-3 x day

With the Paleo AIP, I stopped most supplements (because of additives that could, I've read, potentially be a problem) for the past 3 months and am just getting back into supplements about now.I have to admit that whenever I have to describe how I eat or what I eat, it is a real tough question. I have been on the Paleo AIP eating plan, have not been eating as many vegetables as they recommend. So therefore my potassium intake must be insufficient although I'm not quite sure what the level of intake is.
has a dietitian examined your day to day routine for adherence to recommendations for all essential nutrients
No

related re dehydration, how's the fatty acid intake/status?
On the Paleo AIP I have not been eating nuts seeds nor eggs and I'm not been eating fish more than maybe once a week. I also stopped the Omega-3 about 4 months ago. So with your assistance i'm seeing that my Omega-3 pretty low. :sad:
Last edited by THX1138 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Scott1 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Hi,

If you have pancolitis, are you taking a probiotic? There's an almost endless amount of articles associating the gut with MS these days. This overview of the condition is useful background - http://www.healthline.com/health/pancolitis#overview1 .

If you don't take a probiotic then aim for one that is refrigerated with a diverse spectrum of species that ideally includes Lactobacillus Rhamnosus as a significant component. This is an interesting bug as it is regarded as anti-inflammatory. A well regarded research institute in Melbourne is having a great deal of success controlling peanut allergy by treating patients with this particular bug so it does help with inflammation. See - https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319038.php .

I used to have similar spasms to the ones you described. I'd do an apparently harmless stretch on waking (like a cat) and end up in a series of spasms. Mine didn't disappear as easily as the ones you describe.

I found quite aggressive massage and dry needling broke up the connective tissue (providing I used Pilates to stretch and strengthen) and that has given me a much improved ability to stretch without triggering a spasm. The massage is not relaxing and quite painful but it stops hurting as soon as they finish.

My guess is you need to actively control the things that create inflammation which partly why JL is asking about diet or you won't get much relief. Then you can work on the connective tissue.

The nature of the spasms suggests you need to promote the availability of ATP as that is the trigger for muscle fibres that have locked together to release. For that I use quite large doses of CoQ10 and 2x2000 daily of aceytl-l-carnitine. Magnesium will help ATP as it is readily drawn to it and reduces the negative charge on the molecule from -4 to -2 by binding to two of the negatively charged oxygen molecules. By making the ATP less volatile it tends to function better and is less likely to be disrupted by free radicals.

Regards,
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:29 pm

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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Scott1 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:21 pm

Hi,

Similar contents to mine except mine is skewed to the rhamnosus strain . https://www.australianvitamins.com/prod ... -probiotic (ingredients down the bottom of the page)

I only buy mine straight from a fridge. I want the bacteria live rather than dried. Interestingly, its cheaper instore than on line.

Your condition can also cause malabsorption of other key nutrients. Perhaps it is worth getting a blood test to see if you are deficient.

As an example, this video puts B12 deficiency into some context. (I'm not saying that's your problem.) If you do watch the whole you will soon conclude why probiotics are fundamental to health.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay87aU49RoA

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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:58 pm

Thanks.
I became vigilant about B12 about 5 years ago and took subcutaneous shots. They were easy to do and basically painless with an insulin syringe.
I wasn't ever low in B12 but I wanted to be nowhere near low at all. I have also had MMA and Homocysteine; all were good.

07/31/2017
Vitamin B12 801 pg/mL 193 - 986 pg/mL
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby ElliotB » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:00 am

Try drinking Tonic Water with Quinine daily. The Quinine is supposed to help reduce muscle spasms. My doctor recommended this to me a few years ago and it has helped me. Please be aware that some tonic waters contain regular sugar, high fructose corn syrup and artificial sweeteners and should be avoided. Also check to be sure quinine is in the ingredients list. Quinine is not available on its own - In 1994 the FDA banned quinine from over-the-counter sale. The one I drink uses a small amount of Agave to sweeten it.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby vesta » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:22 am

THX1138 wrote:When I wake up in the morning I get severe, sudden muscle spasms especially in my legs and back with my arms and hands spasming somewhat too. This happens every morning. The interesting thing is the spasms don't happen until I move a part of my body, even a little bit, like flexing my fingers. So, I wake up in bed and then the very first movement I make, no matter how small, sets off the muscle spasms which are so strong they threaten to damage themselves. In less than a minute the muscles go back to a relatively normal (for me) state.
The longer I sleep, the worse the spasms are when I finally move. If I get up after 3 or 4 hours in bed, the spasms aren't that bad. But if I stay in bed for 7 or more hours, they are scary strong.
This problem has been going on for about 8 years and has gotten worse and worse for most of that period.


Consider that blood circulation becomes increasingly sluggish the longer you stay in bed which impacts the nervous system and
the muscles. My morning depression is a function of poor blood circulation through the brain, CNS and if I can get someone to massage my back standing up for one minute, I'm better immediately. Otherwise I do a TENS Acupressure treatment on myself for 5 minutes.

Best regards, Vesta
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:31 am

ok if those zn/cu numbers are ratios, your serum zn/cu target is 1.1 and you want serum cu/zn in the 0.7-1.0 range so by the looks of things you were closest to the mark in early 2014. as usual in a society prone to chronic illness, standard ranges can't be characterized as optimal.

too bad about solaray. i had been using a nice local product but haven't been able to get it in some time. at this point am working my way thru some 'now' l-opti zinc w copper, which is ok. indiviuals' ability to absorb and retain a number of nutrients will depend on food choices. eg regular high density choices to mitigate any nutrient binding options. along the lines of balancing pro and anti inflammatory foods, without necessarily eliminating pro-inflammatory choices with useful nutritional characteristics.

first glance at aip makes me cringe :S
blanket food category omissions, with no apparent attention given to meeting essential nutrient requirements, is how i destroyed my spinal cord, and nervous system in general, in the first place.
you might remember that during my first visits to a naturopath (recommended to me on the basis of also having ms - i'd take that with a large grain of salt these days) i received a bunch of counter-intuitive food avoidance advice. ultimately i ignored this, since much of it aligned with the lifestyle choices that had gotten me in trouble in the first place.

going forward for you i'd say that a consult with a dietitian, to ensure your personal interpretation of AIP meets public health nutritional recommendations, might be wise. hopefully they'll have some actionable advice in the potassium and omega 3 dept etc.

of course this is as always with the understanding that testing is flawed (as evidenced by your lab's reference range for serum magnesium, the top end of which is considered a minimum by some authors - ie a minimum level to provide the best chance of excluding magnesium deficiency within the normal range, with levels any lower in the normal range requiring supplementation).

think that's it for now!
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:24 am

recall
general-discussion-f1/topic24583.html#p224211
general-discussion-f1/topic24583-15.html#p224215

this related article has several decent-looking references but i have not yet looked any deeper than the citations:
https://www.naturalnewsblogs.com/surpri ... hydration/
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
User avatar
jimmylegs
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Posts: 10786
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Zyklon » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:17 pm

It can be dehydration. Please try drinking one glass of water before sleeping. I take 200 mg magnesium with 1 big glass of water. No more stiff muscles when I wake up.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby THX1138 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:56 pm

Zyklon wrote:It can be dehydration...
For sure.
I have a strong tendency to get dried out, especially overnight. If I eat at all near bedtime, I can expect extra bad spasms in the morning. But I also do badly if I go to bed feeling cool from not eating enough during the day. So it is a tough balance.


My message from "Feel better at night"
Some evenings my balance and ability to move improve a lot, such that I can walk about 5 steps unaided.
Until very recently, the cause of this was a total mystery to me.
But now I have noticed under-eating causes greatly increased spasticity and all around doing much worse.
Once I have had 3-4 meals (about 700 calories each) during the day, my hands go from being cool to nice and warm with their blood veins sticking out nicely. My fingers tingle too. It seems I can bring these affects on any time of the day, if I can just eat enough food. This often does not happen in a given day as I am struggling to eat a consistent, regular 3 meals per day, but when it does, it is usually in the evening since it takes me all day to eat enough calories.
My thoughts on this matter are: 1) Foods contain natural nitrates and nitrites which support the production of nitric oxide which plays a role in vaso-relaxation 2) When one doesn't eat enough (I believe) the body sends out adrenaline and cortisol, which cause vasoconstriction.
I have found vaso constriction to be something that makes many of my symptoms much worse.

I am one of the people that improves greatly during a strong niacin flush. Transdermal Mg treatments also help a lot (such as with a Mg IV)

Anyway, that's my take on it.


Or, maybe it is (also) that, when late night comes around I have, for many hours, been up and moving (very little), but much more movement than if I had been in bed.
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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby Scott1 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:38 am

Are you on a vegan/vegetarian diet?

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Re: 1st movement after waking triggers violent muscle spasms

Postby jimmylegs » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:41 am

omg pegan is actually a real thing... i had no idea
odd sx? no dx? check w/ dietitian
DRI=MINIMUM eg bit.ly/1vgQclQ
99% don't meet these. meds/lifestyle can affect levels
status can be low in ms & other cond'ns
'but my results are normal'. typical panels don't test all
deficits occur in 'normal' range
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