all things vitamin D

Discuss herbal therapies, vitamins and minerals, bee stings, etc. here

Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Andrey » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:42 pm

Squeakycat,

It is really exciting to hear that so much is already being done!!! I really hope we'll see the results soon...

Thank you for such useful and informative replies!

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D2 vs D3 Re: all things vitamin D

Postby jimmylegs » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:58 am

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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Andrey » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:44 pm

Is there any news on the calcitriol+d3 treatment?

I wonder if anyone tried this "in real life". The first news was quite a while ago and there must be at least someone who tried it...

Instead of steroids at the onset (or together?) would be very interesting.

Or maybe this just did not show any use in humans despite results with mice...

What about trials? If anyone knows some info, would be very interesting to see.

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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Squeakycat » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:24 pm

Andrey wrote:Is there any news on the calcitriol+d3 treatment?

I wonder if anyone tried this "in real life". The first news was quite a while ago and there must be at least someone who tried it...

Instead of steroids at the onset (or together?) would be very interesting.

Or maybe this just did not show any use in humans despite results with mice...

What about trials? If anyone knows some info, would be very interesting to see.

Andrey

Plugging away at this. Four people that I know of have been doing empirical testing of the protocol. Here is a recent statement on the efficacy from one of the people who has tried it:
Pre-trial test wrote:The calcitriol absolutely works. And it most definitely should be used by neurologists to treat any MS attack. My personal experience was that for approximately six weeks after taking the calcitriol I had complete elimination of muscle spasticity and complete elimination of clonus. This followed the initial the fact which, to me, was akin to the "steroid high" I experienced from a course of IV Solu-Medrol. The quality of the experience, initially, was different from the anti-inflammatory effect of the steroids, as everything not only felt better, but everything actually worked better. My core control and balance improved dramatically, and my usual "bent-over" posture disappeared. Many many friends spontaneously commented on how much better I was walking. Over the past two weeks to clonus and spasticity are returning. The only side effect I experienced at 37.5 µg was a day of diarrhea.

Everyone who has tried this so far is male and all have progressive MS.

The problem with this testing is that we don't have a way to see if a dose is having the same effect in pwMS as was seen in mice. In the proper clinical trial, there will be several direct measures of that to determine a dose that is both safe and effective.

Professor Hayes has been swamped with teaching duties and unable to devote time to getting a clinical trial underway, but expects to be able to do this as soon as the semester ends.

What can be said so far is that there is clinically obvious effect above a certain dose in males with progressive MS. One person who is RRMS is waiting for a relapse to test the effect at that time in lieu of doing a course of Solu-Medrol.

Another thing that is standing out is that unlike what happens in mice where a single dose of calcitriol followed by daily dosing of Vit D3 was effective, it appears that the dose of calcitriol may have to be repeated periodically at least in male progressives. Since we don't actually know whether the dose level is adequate, this has to be taken for what it is, an observation based on a very small number of tests which are little more than stabbing in the dark to determine a dose.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:33 am

fyi re a familiar cofactor. blame anon for this ;D

fwiw, here are three of the first four google scholar results for a seach on zinc calcitriol:

Zinc modulates mononuclear cellular calcitriol metabolism in peritoneal dialysis patients
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8731107
the effect of zinc on mononuclear cellular cytokine and calcitriol production is mediated through different pathways.

Zinc nutritional status modulates the response of 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol to calcium depletion in rats
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/16194 ... 1Mz4nwo.22
1,25(OH)2D increased in both groups, but was higher in the zinc-replete than the zinc-depleted group at the end of the experiment. ... We conclude zinc depletion diminishes the response of 1,25(OH)2D to calcium depletion in rats.

Zinc nutritional status modulates the 1,25-(OH)2D. Response in uremic rats
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/1819762
There was a significant effect of renal function, zinc nutritional status, and the interaction of these factors in accounting for differences in mean 1,25-(OH)2D levels.

not to mention:

Possible alterations of the in vivo 1,25(OH)2D3 synthesis and its tissue distribution in magnesium-deficient rats.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/7669505
We found that magnesium deficiency produced a decrease of both the in vivo synthesis of 3H-1,25(OH)2D3 and the binding of the radioactive hormone to bone tissue.

Hypomagnesemia and the parathyroid hormone-vitamin D endocrine system in children with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus: Effects of magnesium administration
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 760580486X
All patients were given magnesium orally (6 mg/kg daily of elemental magnesium) for up to 60 days. During treatment, serum magnesium, total and ionized calcium, intact PTH, calcitriol, and osteocalcin concentrations significantly increased, reaching control values. ... These data suggest that magnesium deficiency plays a pivotal role in altering mineral homeostasis in insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby Anonymoose » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:43 am

Hehe. Thanks jimmy. ;)

...and you have to watch competing micronutrients too!!
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby jimmylegs » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:50 am

so true!
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Estradiol, testosterone and calcitriol

Postby Squeakycat » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:35 pm

Posting a link to two recently reported studies of estadiol and testosterone, under vitamin D because like calcitriol, the bioactive form of vitamin D, they are secosteroids and they interact. A complete guess, but I suspect that the benefits of both may well be linked to that interaction with calcitriol.

I posted details here.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby lyndacarol » Wed May 13, 2015 9:55 am

Lots of vitamin D info in one place:

http://www.cancercenter.com/community/t ... e=OUTBRAIN
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby kw202 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:31 pm

Here's a question: If I'm dosing vitamin D at 10000 IU a day... what else should I be taking to compensate? I'm also taking about 300mg of magnesium. Should I also be taking K2? How much?
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby lyndacarol » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:25 pm

kw202 wrote:Here's a question: If I'm dosing vitamin D at 10000 IU a day... what else should I be taking to compensate? I'm also taking about 300mg of magnesium. Should I also be taking K2? How much?
After taking 8000 IU of vitamin D3 daily for about a year and a half, I developed a kidney stone. I suspect there was a connection. I caution you about taking very large daily doses.

In an effort to control where calcium is deposited, I take MK-7 (Vitamin K2 as menaquinone–7) 90 mcg per softgel.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby lyndacarol » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:45 pm

kw202 wrote:Here's a question: If I'm dosing vitamin D at 10000 IU a day... what else should I be taking to compensate? I'm also taking about 300mg of magnesium. Should I also be taking K2? How much?
From Dr. Mercola's newsletter: "What You Need to Know about Vitamin K2, D and Calcium"
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... in-k2.aspx
If you take oral vitamin D, you also need to take vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 deficiency is actually what produces the symptoms of vitamin D toxicity, which includes inappropriate calcification that can lead to hardening of your arteries
He interviews Dr. Kate Rheaume-Bleue (15 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET_2w9OOdtY#t=16

on her book, Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby vilnietis » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:32 am

lyndacarol,

how do you know that kidney stones are due to vitamin D supplementation? Following your logic people cannot go outside the house during daytime. Everyone knows that people are able to get 10,000IU from sunlight in half an hour. Sunlight will also lead to calcification. Sounds ridiculously, isn't it?
I think your kidney stone adventures are due to other factors and I'm sorry to hear you have this problem.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby lyndacarol » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:57 pm

vilnietis wrote:lyndacarol,

how do you know that kidney stones are due to vitamin D supplementation? Following your logic people cannot go outside the house during daytime. Everyone knows that people are able to get 10,000IU from sunlight in half an hour. Sunlight will also lead to calcification.
I do not know that my kidney stone was due to my high, long-term vitamin D supplementation. I suspect there was a connection. As most people who connect events occurring at the same time, I ascribed the kidney stone event to the only change I had made, i.e. D3 supplementation.

I was not taking vitamin K2 at the time and there was no monitoring of my urinary calcium excretion. I had not been identified as a "kidney stone former."
Effect of vitamin D repletion on urinary calcium excretion among kidney stone formers
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22422535

CONCLUSIONS:
Among stone formers with vitamin D deficiency, a limited course of vitamin D repletion does not seem to increase mean urinary calcium excretion, although a subset of individuals may have an increase. These data suggest that vitamin D therapy, if indicated, should not be withheld solely on the basis of stone disease, but 24-hour urinary calcium excretion should be monitored after repletion.
I would now encourage anyone taking high doses of vitamin D3 supplements for an extended period of time to have the doctor monitor his/her urinary calcium.
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Re: all things vitamin D

Postby vilnietis » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:19 pm

First, your vitamin D supplementation was really below normal. Normal I would say is 10,000IU. Well known, confirmed, don't listen to FDA :)
Second, I take 70.000IU for extended period of time and nothing. No signs of any toxicity. I avoid diary and nuts, drink 2.5l per day, do exercise and that is enough to avoid any side effects.

So please re-think your past and go back to vitamin D ASAP. I know many people with a kidney stones, who didn't follow those 4 basic rules, but continues to take now 60,000IU or more without any side effects by following strictly the rules ;)
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