This is fascinating!!!!!

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.

Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:28 am

Normb, jugular started a new thread
Post subject: Daflon 500mg tracking thread
chronic-cerebrospinal-venous-insufficiency-ccsvi-f40/topic17889.html
He just got his Daflon, maybe posting your experience there if it does anything for you. Keep us updated.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby 1eye » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:31 pm

As with vasodilators like Viagra, it may be specific to one kind of organ more than another, due too differences in the makeup of vessels and what they need to carry. I agree we would have heard by now if this supplement did bad things to, say heart patients (like me) taking nitro (not like me since biking season!), or some other medicine that acts on blood vessels, the way Viagra does. I suspect especially without "micronization" it's effect is not quick or powerful, and capillaries get more benefit than larger vessels. The resistance is higher, so the current (flow) in a single capillary is slower than it is in a big thing like an artery or vein. I bet the effect on resistance is negligible in a single vein like a jugular or azygos, because it's so low to start with.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby NormB » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:09 pm

Greetings 1Eye,
I'm not sure what you mean by resistance. Of flow perhaps? Daflon does not work on that paradigm as much as on inflamation of the vessels which then permeates through the veins to whatever is adjacent. Dania I believe left this link of a youTube explaining Daflon's action on the vessels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iugFL21Z ... e=youtu.be
I hope I am understanding your assertions correctly but this link might explain further.

Take Care

NormB
'92 diag RR - '05 SP
On LDN since Sept. 2012 with better quality of life.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby 1eye » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:26 pm

Yes, I had seen that video. I think the only thing I missed was that eventually, if there is swelling of the veins, they might return to normal size, which would not affect the heart, unless normal includes vein swelling and reflux. Another interesting item is that they did not show any effect on arteries. Maybe that is because their endothelium and smooth muscle is thicker and doesn't react as much, or maybe because the pressure is higher in arteries and there are not valves to help defy gravity, so they don't get reflux, or expand as easily. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Anyway I ain't worried about vasoconstriction. Probably my morning coffee affects that more. Yes, resistance to flow. That is what narrowings cause.
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CCSVI procedure Albany Aug 2010
'MS' is over - if you want it
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby daniel » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:13 pm

search amazon.com or vitacost.com for 'Diosmin', I believe it has the same ingredients as Daflon. One 60 pill bottle is $10, the other brand has 30pills for $15
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby dania » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:06 am

Daflon is micronized and standardized. When it is micronized it is absorption is better. Diosimin unless it say micronized it is not and when purchasing a supplement there is no guarantee what is on the label is in the product. Manufacturers of supplements are not required to do any quality control testing.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:38 pm

Well, I emailed Dr. Bergan at UCSD. :)

Will let you know if I receive a response.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby Bethr » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:56 pm

I found this study while doing some research.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_3_11/ai_n16788772/

Comparison of Pycnogenol and Daflon in treating chronic venous insufficiency: a prospective, controlled study

The aim of this study was to investigate the clinical efficacy of oral Pycnogenol (Horphag Research Ltd., UK) in patients with severe chronic venous insufficiency (CVI) in comparison to the combination of diosmin and hesperidin (Daflon, Servier, France). A group of 86 patients with severe chronic venous insufficiency (CVI), venous hypertension, ankle swelling) and previous history of venous ulcerations received either oral Pycnogenol (capsules) 150 mg or 300 mg daily for 8 weeks or Daflon, 1,000 mg/day.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:10 pm

Hi bethr,

Pycnogenol is another fascinating compound! And it's price is similar to the price of Daflon. So far, the world of supplements is eye-opening to me; beyond Vit D, I knew nothing of supplements. Without FDA regulation, they're a world unto themselves seemingly governed only by patents and licensing agreements and supply and demand pricing of geographically isolated compounds, such as the French maritime pine tree bark ingredient used in Pycnogenol.

THANK YOU for sharing!

I'll try to find out more about how Pycnogenol and Daflon differ and are similar. Right now, we have some testimonials from pwMS/CCSVI of Daflon but not of Pycnogenol. We could start our own study with some pwMS/CCSVI taking Daflon for a month or two and some taking Pycnogenol for the same time period, after which, we can compare results. I might try both: http://www.scribd.com/doc/49520587/Clin ... nt-of-OPC3 (side note: cigarette smokers will like two of the studies examined).

Since I have 'Valvular CCSVI' (specifically annular), I'm not worried very much about vasoconstriction as a side effect of Daflon, but Pycnogonel is a vasodilator which I think would be the better choice--however, there could be important bioflavanoids found only in Daflon that are helpful for some reason for pwMS/CCSVI. Lots of questions!
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby Algis » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:54 pm

I tried Pycnogenol for about 3 months (see natural-approach-f27/topic14935.html ) but haven't seen any benefits... Maybe it was too little and I stopped because it is a pain to get it here.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:55 am

Hi Algis,

I'm sorry Pycnogenol didn't help you. The supplement is not a vasoconstrictor which might be why you didn't have a benefit (heavy emphasis on the word 'might'). Would Daflon be any easier for you to get? Daflon is a vasoconstrictor and also helps with decreasing leukocytes and adhesion molecules and with slowing/stopping valvular remodeling.

Thank you for telling us about your experience with Pycnogenol.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby Algis » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:43 am

Happy Poet: I will try Daflon as I already asked the pharmacist. It might not be much easier to get but at least I can try. I have no idea why Pycnogenol did not help...
That shall not bare anyone who's willing to try for himself. I have a "motor" MS; in a way that I have no fatigue, no dizziness, no vertigo, no headaches etc... (and I aim to believe no cognitive problems either :P ) but am tri-plegic (only 1 arm/hand remain functional) and that is supposed to be a spinal chord lesions located problem. That "could" explain it?
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:53 am

Algis, maybe your motor problems are not venous in origin--maybe the problems are because of arterial or nerve issues. If at all possible for you, I suggest you try UCC (Upper Cervical Chiropractic) because pinching or compression of veins, arteries, and nerves where they exit the skull could also cause motor problems as well as problems with poor CSF flow.

Misalignments of the bottom of the skull with the first vertebra, the Atlas (C1), can be fixed with UCC. The thread by Dr. Flanagan (uprightdoc), "CCSVI and CCVBP" has lots of information. My Atlas Orthogonal chiropractor helped me walk again by taking away 100% of the numbness in my feet. I still have other neuro problems, though, so my search for help continues.

Keep us updated on how Daflon works for you--I wish it was easier for you to obtain.

Best of luck!
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby HappyPoet » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:00 am

HappyPoet wrote:Well, I emailed Dr. Bergan at UCSD. :)

Will let you know if I receive a response.

Dr. Bergan's daughter sent me two very long, lovely replies which I thanked her for.

While her father is not able to help anymore, he wishes us well with our endeavors.
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Re: This is facinating!!!!!

Postby Jugular » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:15 pm

Algis wrote:Happy Poet: I will try Daflon as I already asked the pharmacist. It might not be much easier to get but at least I can try. I have no idea why Pycnogenol did not help...
That shall not bare anyone who's willing to try for himself. I have a "motor" MS; in a way that I have no fatigue, no dizziness, no vertigo, no headaches etc... (and I aim to believe no cognitive problems either :P ) but am tri-plegic (only 1 arm/hand remain functional) and that is supposed to be a spinal chord lesions located problem. That "could" explain it?

We are all only rough approximations of each other with our grab bag of symptoms and a diagnosis of last resort - if it's not something else, it must be MS. We all have nerve damage in one form or another, the devil is in understanding the cause.

If the vascular/immune system plays a roll it is still unrealistic to expect that correcting vascular issues will fix frayed nerves. I thing that fixing the vascular issues allows the nerves a chance to heal and to operate in a more optimal environment. But even if there is no repair, it is still the medical breakthrough of the century if it can halt the progression. I mention this because CCSVI has created such high hopes that if a treatment doesn't cause a reversal, its considered a failure.

I think if you asked me five years ago, if I wanted something that could stop the advance of my disease, I would treat it with lukewarm enthusiasm. Ask me today if I'd like to be able to peel back five years of accumulated disability, and I'd say hell yes! So we have to be considerate of our future selves I guess.

Like you, my symptoms are mainly below neck, but I did experience much better motor nerve function after angio and now (less dramatically) with Daflon.

So I guess what I'm saying s that theses treatments can help motor function but don't automatically think something isn't working if it isn't producing a gain. It could be slowing or stopping a progression. At least that is what I keep telling myself. Like Winston Churchill says, success is moving from failure to failure with enthusiasm.
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