New Information

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Re: New Information

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 05, 2012 8:31 am

scott, fyi b12 is indeed the tip of the iceberg. i noticed your list did not include zinc or selenium, great anti-viral nutrients.

selenium is kick ass to the point that if a patient is infected with HIV, over time the patients with good se status live, and the ones with low se status die. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 209190601A

Zinc potentiates the antiviral action of human IFN-alpha tenfold.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11506740

my stepdaughter had a chronic ebv infection for two years, she was skin and bones, but whatever info i sent via remote conversations didn't do the trick. in the end i had to fly out to visit her twice, to coach her on diet and supplements in person. and make sure she got the proper bloodwork done. finally, she is better.

i still have to do course corrections every now and then, but she's on a much better track over all.

one other thing. i think it's problematic to look at these different indicators separately. for example, i tried to correct my uric acid with diet for years and no success. some people will supplement inosine to fix that problem, but i failed to find any inosine and came to understand that serum zinc and uric acid levels were correlated, got my zinc tested, was deficient, fixed it and started testing zinc and UA together, and voila, both problems solved with one nutrient.

lastly, as to your work on activating ppars, have you seen this abstract before?

Zinc gluconate is an agonist of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-α in the epidermis
"...zinc gluconate significantly upregulated PPAR-α function..."
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: New Information

Postby Scott1 » Sat May 05, 2012 3:52 pm

Hi Annesse,

Firstly please pass on my best regards to Darth.

Your link about the person with high Serum B12 is similar to my background. I have had intensive intramuscular Vitamin B injections and coincident intravenous ascorbic acid for Vit C but I just went on to get worse and have another sizeable MS attack. That was prior to using Interferon. When I just used that, I didn't get better or worse. It was only when I started to combine with an anti ebv medicatication that I began my long haul back to health.

If serum B12 can mislead how should we measure "active" B12?

I'm sure your on top of all this but this link suggests we are not far way from each other-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18598728

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Re: New Information

Postby Scott1 » Sat May 05, 2012 4:09 pm

Hi Jimmylegs,

I missed your post before I replied to Annesse. Very inefficient of me.

I also hear what you are saying about Zinc. The question that keeps going around in my head is "why am I deficient in certain things?". I accept that some benefit can be obtained by supplementation but I'm just not sure that it will work in the long term.

To use a silly analogy- If I glued the wings on a Jumbo jet and painted over the joins it might look right but would it be ok to fly?

That's the reason I look at EBV, peroxynitrite and the nuclear receptors.

I find both your posts useful and informative but I'd love you to have a peek down the path I am following just to see what is there. I'm the most atypical MS person I know of and I remain very well as long as I keep doing what I have been doing for a long time. What troubles me is whether or not I will also hit an end game where the approach doesn't work so I need to understand what is actually happening.

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Re: New Information

Postby Annesse » Sat May 05, 2012 5:01 pm

Hi Scott1~ I thought it was interesting that you mentioned taking vitamin C. Here is some info from the National Institutes of Health.
"Early research suggests that vitamin C supplements can destroy dietary vitamin B12. It isn't known whether this interaction is important, but to stay on the safe side, take vitamin C supplements at least 2 hours after meals."

Thank you for the link. Let me study it before I reply. I believe excess peroxynitrite is a result of the lack of B12. Here is some good information on how the nitric oxide cycle fails due to a lack of B12. This results in an over-production of peroxynitrite. If you scroll down, there are some good graphs.
http://www.drmyattswellnessclub.com/B12MECFSarticle.htm

Here is some information from my book.

"Vitamin B12 neutralizes excess nitric oxide and prevents it from combining with O2- and forming peroxynitrite. The following studies are evidence that, due to a lack of B12, nitric oxide is playing a detrimental role in autoimmune disease.

1. Nagy, G., A. Koncz, T. Telarico, D. Fernandez, B. Ersek, E. Buzás, A. Perl. 2010. Central role of nitric oxide in the pathogenesis of rheumatoid arthritis and systemic lupus erythematosus. Arthritis Res Ther 12(3):210.

2. Giovannoni, G., N.C. Silver, J. O’Riordan, R.F. Miller, S.J. Heales, J.M. Land, M. Elliot, M. Feldmann, D.H. Miller, E.J. Thompson. 1999. Increased urinary nitric oxide metabolites in patients with multiple sclerosis correlates with early and relapsing disease. Mult Scler 5(5):335-41.

3. Wanchu, A., M. Khullar, A. Sud, P. Bambery. 2000. Elevated nitric oxide production in patients with Sjögren’s syndrome. Clin Rheumatol 19(5):360-4.

4. Pall, M.L. 2002. Levels of the nitric oxide synthase product citrulline are elevated in sera of chronic fatigue syndrome patients. J Chro Fatigue Synd 10(3/4):37-41.


As you would expect, all of the diseases which we have shown to lack B12, also have elevated nitric oxide. So yes, excess peroxynitrite will cause futher damage, but we are still left with going back far enough in the chain of events until we have found the source of all of these symptoms and findings. If lack of B12 leads to an excess of peroxynitrite, then we would need to address the cause of the lack of B12.
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Re: New Information

Postby jimmylegs » Sat May 05, 2012 5:35 pm

hey there, that's easy - combination genetics and environment. you're deficient in certain things because food nutrient density has decreased over time, ag soil nutrients need be maintained only to the point that plants aren't visibly affected, things like magnesium used to be provided in ground water, but now it's removed from city water, and i have no idea what kind of water is used for commercial crop irrigation but i am willing to gamble it ain't guaranteed to be mineral-rich ground water. because as stress levels rise magnesium levels go down, because even if you live somewhere sunny the fear of the sun (combined with poor absorption capacity) has made us all societally deficient in d3. because the standard developed country diet tends to have its O6:O3 ratio too high. chemical and pharma companies' links to our modern food supply. because the trend away from red meat has lowered societal levels of zinc over time, modern gluten and phytate food combinations can also interfere with zinc bioavailability, together there things contribute to having all our inherited issues ('genetic warts', if you will) manifest themselves, and because nutrients work together - if you're missing one nutrient, it can affect levels of assorted others. for example, correcting my zinc deficiency both normalized my uric acid, and i found out later it more than tripled my vit d3 absorption. finally, since correcting all these nutrient levels i am no longer susceptible to bacterial, viral, or fungal infections, which in the past were the bane of my existence. i'll leave it at that rather than cover all of the 'usual suspect' nutrients and all their interrelationships.
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: New Information

Postby Scott1 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:12 pm

Thankyou both,

Remember I had elevated B12 levels so I shouldn't have had elevated Nitric Oxide levels.

If the serum B12 is misleading and the answer is the intracellular activity then I feel like we are heading back to the nuclear receptors and whether they are activated.

There's no rush to find the answer so I'll wait for your considered opinions.

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Re: New Information

Postby Scott1 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:41 pm

Hi Annesse,

Your link is interesting. There's a path for both of us in the diagram. Mine is from infection to O2 and you come in through NO.

One of the B injections I had was Methylcobalamin but I still went on to have attacks. The work on Vit C was interesting also. My intravenous ascorbic acid had to convert to C but I don't know how long that takes. Maybe they did knock each other out. The clinic I went to for that was actually treating cancer patients so I presume they knew what they were doing.

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Re: New Information

Postby Annesse » Sat May 05, 2012 9:23 pm

I really believe supplemental B12 is not effective in reversing these illnesses. I think supplemental B12 of any kind will actually lead to an increased risk of disease, as we saw in the large study from Norway on heart disease patients. The fact that your nitric oxide was still elevated may just be evidence that B12 supplements are not able to take the place of natural B12 derived from our diets that is properly metabolized. The right whole foods are powerful medicine and can do things you never imagined. In fact, I just stumbled on this blog tonight. I don't know what this women has, but she posted she was in a wheelchair in January and last night she danced at a wedding.

http://lifeisgoodcc.wordpress.com/author/lifeisgoodcc/
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Re: New Information

Postby Scott1 » Sun May 06, 2012 12:54 am

Hi Again,

If we revisit this dilemma of me having enough serum B12 but not absorbing it then I must lack enough intrinsic factor which implies my hydrochloric acid is too low.

The receptor that has a role in this is RAR which is the one I am trying to activate with carrot juice to get the all trans and 9 cis retinoic acids.

I presume I need the PH to be low as well based of what I've read today.

If breakfast is the most important meal of the day then I am having the following-

1 lemon juiced diluted with water
Greek style plain yoghurt
3 boiled eggs

On the way to work I have a really large glass of Carrot Juice with Ginger

At work I have now added a good swig of Olive leaf extract then it's nothing till lunch.

I don't know how my medications become involved but the Valtrex is a Purine and I think that might come into it as well.

Any thoughts?
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Re: New Information

Postby jimmylegs » Sun May 06, 2012 6:50 am

Function and Mechanism of Zinc Metalloenzymes
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1437S.long
"Zinc is required for the activity of > 300 enzymes, covering all six classes of enzymes... In the zinc hydrolases and lyases, such as the zinc proteases and CAs, the zinc ion serves as a powerful electrophilic catalyst by providing all or a combination of the following: (1) an activated water molecule for nucleophilic attack, (2) polarization of the carbonyl of the scissile bond and (3) stabilization of the negative charge in the transition state."

re other proteases like aspartate proteases and cysteine proteases: aspartate and cysteine are non-essential amino acids. mammalian biosynthesis of these ones would depend on liver function and the urea cycle. optimal zinc status required for both. zinc has been shown to reverse cirrhosis, and correlates positively with serum uric acid levels.

re serine proteases: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultran ... eases.html

"Three protein-digesting enzymes secreted by the pancreas are serine proteases: chymotrypsin, trypsin, elastase... Several activated clotting factors are serine proteases, including: Factors 10 (X), 11 (XI), and 12 (XII); Thrombin; Plasmin..."

gross kind of study :S
Large doses of zinc oxide increases the activity of hydrolases in rats
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15068813
"...ZnO supplementation dose dependently increased the plasma Zn concentration and significantly increased amylase, lipase, trypsin and total protease activity in pancreatic homogenates and small intestinal contents. The statistical analysis showed significant protein and ZnO interaction on the activity of amylase in the pancreas, and amylase, trypsin and total-protease in the small intestinal content. Therefore ZnO at high dietary concentration may influence the digestion of nutrients via increased hydrolase activity."

interesting:
Impaired handling of orally administered zinc in pancreatic insufficiency
http://www.ajcn.org/content/37/2/268.full.pdf

full text is my best friend, look at this data, top of page 269:
range of base-line fasting serum Zn in pancreatic insufficiency patients: 43.7 - 95.4 ug/dl.
to get this into my language you have to multiply by 0.153 to get a range of 6.6 umol/L - 14.6 umol/L. the 'normal' range being 11.5-18.5, this whole crew was low normal or outright deficient. certainly far from optimal levels seen in healthy controls (18-20 umol/L).

i suspect these patients' orally administered zinc has oh, say, >299 other things it needs to do before it starts lounging around in higher levels in serum, as seen in the healthy controls.

scott forgive me for not knowing this but was your b12 high due to supplementing with cobalamin?
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: New Information

Postby Annesse » Sun May 06, 2012 9:17 am

Hi Scott~I think your first sentence says it all. HCL, intrinsic factor, enzymes, beneficial bacteria, an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria. All connected. That is why I believe this needs to be addressed in a holistic manner. Intrinsic factor is a protein, made from amino acids found in high protein foods. If you lack the ability to break down high protein foods, you won't be able to make sufficient intrinsic factor or release B12.
You can take supplements (jimmeylegs mentions zinc), but what is the problem really? If the problem is you don't have sufficient enzymes, or beneficial bacteria,then the answer is to replace them. Forcing our bodies to produce more of a substance they just don't have the raw materials for will, in the long run, cause more of a depletion. Think of beating a tired old horse to get it to keep moving. Eventually, it will collapse and may even die. If you let the horse rest and generously feed and water it, the horse will regain strength and energy and be able to perform its required duties.

Most of us got sick for a very simple reason. We lost the ability to digest proteins. In order to get well, we will need to restore this ability.

You do have to pay attention to detail. I would make sure your eggs are are truly pastured. Eggs contain only a small amount of B12 even if they are pastured. Your GI tract contains thousands of strains of beneficial bacteria (or should). Pasturized yogurt has no enzymes, denatured proteins (the pasturization process damages the proteins in the milk), and only a few strains of bacteria that were added back, since the pasturization process killed all of the original ones. Proteins work together like locks and keys. If a protein is damaged, it will no longer be useful and will, in fact, be dangerous. Your immune system is targeting denatured proteins in these diseases. Plus, eating any proteins you can't break down will increase your disease symptoms. (Picture the unbroken down proteins and DNA in the lupus patients bloodstream in my first post).

I thought this was interesting information from Wiki on vitamin C.

"Vitamin C is purely the L-enantiomer of ascorbate; the opposite D-enantiomer has no physiological significance. Both forms are mirror images of the same molecular structure. When L-ascorbate, which is a strong reducing agent, carries out its reducing function, it is converted to its oxidized form, L-dehydroascorbate.[2] L-dehydroascorbate can then be reduced back to the active L-ascorbate form in the body by enzymes and glutathione.[5] During this process semidehydroascorbic acid radical is formed. Ascorbate free radical reacts poorly with oxygen, and thus will not create a superoxide. Instead two semidehydroascorbate radicals will react and form one ascorbate and one dehydroascorbate. With the help of glutathione, dehydroxyascorbate is converted back to ascorbate.[6] The presence of glutathione is crucial since it spares ascorbate and improves antioxidant capacity of blood.[7] Without it dehydroxyascorbate could not convert back to ascorbate."

So, the presence of glutathione is crucial to convert the oxidized dehydroxyascorbate back to the active L-ascorbate. MS, fibro, lupus patients etc. are deficient in glutathione. Glutathione comes from the essential amino acid methionine, which is found in high protein foods. I posted studies to show fibromyalgia and CFS patients lack methionine. And we have shown that taking the components of proteins (amino acids) if you lack the ability to break down proteins,would lead to an increased risk of disease.

I am going to need to take a few days or longer break from posting. Our 2nd edition is due out this weekend and we have some last minute things to get done. I did want to make one more post on the grey matter damage found in MS. This next study found that high homocysteine and low vitamin C were connected to grey matter damage. Homocysteine would rise as a result of a lack of B12 and low levels of vitamin C would result from a lack of glutathione.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12697276
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Re: New Information

Postby jimmylegs » Sun May 06, 2012 9:45 am

2009 selenium links to glutathione status
regimens-f22/topic2489-165.html#p63040

2009 zinc links to glutathione status
general-discussion-f1/topic3800.html#p55853

2010 link to study re glutathione status in zinc deficiency
regimens-f22/topic2489-195.html#p138681
my approach: no meds so far - just nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory whole foods, and supplements where needed
info: www.whfoods.com, www.nutritiondata.com
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Re: New Information

Postby ssmme » Sun May 06, 2012 5:54 pm

How do you know that the foods you eat aren't GMO? They usually aren't labeled.
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Re: New Information

Postby Annesse » Sun May 06, 2012 9:09 pm

Hi ssmme~ Here is a Non-GMO Shoppers' Guide.

http://truefoodnow.org/shoppers-guide/
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Re: New Information

Postby Scott1 » Mon May 07, 2012 12:52 am

Hi Jimmylegs,

It's so long ago that I forget how many different 'B's I've had . I definitely remember methylcobalamin.
I checked backed on some results I had in 2001 when I was very sick and note the following readings-

Vit B12 >1500 (normal range 150-700 pmol/L)
Folate 41.4 (6.3-30.0 nmol/L)
Red cell Folate 720 (>300 nmol/L)
Vit B6 (Pyridoxine) 94 (50-100units)
Red Cell Zinc 186 (160-250imol/L)
Red cell Magnesium 2.24(1.7-2.8)
Erythrocyte Potassium 15 (11-46 umol/L)

So basically they were in the range or high but I was very sick.

I was low in Threonine but well in the normal range for Methionine, Pheylalanine, Tryptophan and Lysine.
The real low readings were some of the non essential amino acids ; particularly Serine,Asparagine, Glycine, Arginine,Alanine and Tryosine.

Given the B's are high but I am making some non essential amino acids and not others there must be a pathway blocked somehow.
Peroxynitrite can do that but I guess it's not on its own. I've assumed infection by EBV (I'm IgG positive) gives me a suspect to consider.
The other odd readings at the time were the Free Androgen Index at 26.7% (normal range 55-140%) and Serum Insulin was a bit wild when tested.
In 2009 I had some Iron Studies done which showed Ferritin at 426 (NR 20-300ug/L) and Transferrin at 2.1 (NR 2.2-3.7g/L) whilst Iron was mid range at 21 (10-30umol/L) and Transferrin Sat was 40% (NR 13-47%)

As I said beore I am very suspicious about single data points and prefer trend data but I don't have the complete set of everything.

I haven't had the B's redone for a long time but I was very sick at that time and I'm very well now.

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