all things magnesium

[jimmylegs]

i've posted about this specific possible side effect (sluggish muscles) at least 10 times (including in your topic this past feb) and i am pretty sure NHE has too - but it is possible this specific side effect has not made it into this very logical spot.

sounds logical that 600 mg supplemental mag in addition to an unknown amount from food could be reason to suspect excess. when sluggish muscles happened to me, i had so much mag in diet that i couldn't take more than one supplemental mag pill per day. at the time with that brand it meant i could not go from adding an extra 100mg to adding an extra 200 mg per day.
since then, i don't pile in high mag food to the same extent and i can definitely deal with two mag pills per day, using a diff brand which delivers 200 mg per powder cap. so where i couldn't add an extra 100mg before, totalling 200mg extra mag per day, i can comfortably add 400mg per day now. i did a solid hike yesterday, down into a deep river valley and out again. no problem. when extra mag made me feel it years ago now, i figured it out just climbing a flight of stairs.

re your plan - if you drop supplemental magnesium altogether, for five months on end, does that mean you also plan to drop supplemental vitamin d3 for the same time period? if no, how much d3 do you plan to take daily without magnesium?

[zen2010]

i've posted about this specific possible side effect (sluggish muscles) at least 10 times (including in your topic this past feb) and i am pretty sure NHE has too - but it is possible this specific side effect has not made it into this very logical spot.

My bad
I haven't read the whole thread.
Also, I forgot your comment in my topic in February. Sorry, memory issue is one of my symptoms.

re your plan - if you drop supplemental magnesium altogether, for five months on end, does that mean you also plan to drop supplemental vitamin d3 for the same time period? if no, how much d3 do you plan to take daily without magnesium?

I guess I will have to decrease my daily UI3000 => can you pls advice here?


Thks

[jimmylegs]

hey it's not like i remembered. i just know what words i'm likely to use to describe this issue, and searching the forum revealed a related post in your thread in feb 2018.
i'm no memory magician lol (other than when nutrient status was bad, that increasing blood flow helped. that was specifically on the premise of increasing 'oxygen and nutrient delivery to starved tissues'. blood flow strategies do nothing for memory now that nutrient status is fixed - which in my case was largely a zinc issue).

as for next steps in your case, i think it's a matter of tweaking the d3 / mag interaction. in the time period leading up to your recent symptoms, have you:

- increased supplemental mag amounts while maintaining supplemental d3 amounts? OR
- maintained mag but decreased d3? OR
- increased mag *and* decreased d3?

depending what the last change was (if any), that would help inform logical next steps. for instance if some time ago, you upped daily mag from 400mg to 600mg because of symptoms of d3 excess/imbalance at 3000IU d3 per day, then dropping extra daily mag to zero might be problematic.

remind me how much mag you get in one pill? as mentioned above, i get 200mg in mine. if yours is the same and you can drop back to 2x200mg per day, and within each day taking 1x200mg *with* d3 and 1x200mg well away from d3, that could help.
if you test mag reduction and symptoms of excess d3 reappear, you could either go back to 600 mg mag for a while, or drop the d3 to 2000 iu/d.

longer term, maybe it's a matter of taking a weekly perspective. eg if 3000IU d3 stays the same, then you could perhaps take weekends off from mag on a 600mg per day routine, or take weekends off from d3 on a 400mg mag per day routine. or something along those lines.

it's too bad you couldn't get a snapshot of both serum d3 and serum magnesium right now while you're feeling this way. that could really help take the guesswork out of tweaking the regimen!

[zen2010]

Hi,

re Mg: In August, I went from 500mg to 600mg (6*100mg tablets).

Few months before August I stopped taking D3 supplements. That was a mistake (my last blood test result showed I was deficient)
So I went to UI3000 daily with a first shot at UI13000 to catch up (I planned to go to UI4000/day but I finally went to UI3000)

So, no change since August:
-2*100 mg Mg tablet during breakfast
-2*100 mg Mg with UI3000 D3 at lunch
-2*100 mg Mg during dinner

I plan to take 2*100 mg Mg with UI3000 D3 during breakfast and nothing for the rest of the day.
What do you think?

[jimmylegs]

hi that's great input.

what's the highest your d3 level has ever been?

do you have in your records, any history of serum d3 and serum mag levels taken at the same time?

re next steps, i place much stock in the pharmacist's long ago, wise, and profoundly effective advice, which was (as paraphrased above, with additional emphasis now added)

1. take half of daily supplemental magnesium with the day's supplemental vit d3
2. take the other half of daily supplemental magnesium well away from supplemental vit d3.

the rational for that divided approach is this:
one half of daily mag is monopolized by d3 interactions
the other half is then available to your body, without d3 interference, for its hundreds of other vital interactions.

if frustration comes through, it's because i have posted that timing nuance a thousand times if i've posted it once :S
as you've said, memory is a factor in your case. let's call lack of patience a factor in mine ;)

so with all that said, what do you think i will think of your proposed plan?

[zen2010]

1. take half of daily supplemental magnesium with the day's supplemental vit d3
2. take the other half of daily supplemental magnesium well away from supplemental vit d3.

the rational for that divided approach is this:
one half of daily mag is monopolized by d3 interactions
the other half is then available to your body, without d3 interference, for its hundreds of other vital interactions.

Well, I guess this is the key thing to remember

if frustration comes through, it's because i have posted that timing nuance a thousand times if i've posted it once :S
as you've said, memory is a factor in your case. let's call lack of patience a factor in mine ;)

I understand. Sorry again

so with all that said, what do you think i will think of your proposed plan?

As mentionned above, the key thing is to figure out the amount of Mg I take from food.
Once this is done, I will take D3 supplement with half daily Mag as adviced (I might decrease D3 amount to UI 2000)
As I said to NHE few minutes ago, it's not that easy to tweak Mag:D3 ratio (it has to be adjusted continuously, depending on food source)

Cheers

[jimmylegs]

it's a very very good idea to understand your dietary mag intake.
food sources should always come first, and supplements should be used to top up.
food comes with built in cofactors. supplements in isolation can throw natural proportions right out of whack.
there are many online templates for professionals' three day diet diaries. once you have one of these in front of you, you can look at it one nutrient at a time and understand how your status quo routine contributes to your daily needs.
after contributions from food. the next most important consideration is antinutrient influences. in the case of magnesium, that means things like PPI drugs, alcohol, physical mental or emotional stress (including exercise), and as i've recently learned, chemo drugs - specifically paclitaxel (taxol). and of course, how much vitamin d3 is taken.

re your earlier plan above,

-2*100 mg Mg tablet during breakfast
-2*100 mg Mg with UI3000 D3 at lunch
-2*100 mg Mg during dinner

when you drop back to half your supplemental mag away from d3 (with a possible drop in d3 intake as well) since with 100mg pills you can, it's probably a good idea to keep the additional 100mg doses divided. likely better for absorption purposes.

i am still curious re past serum mag and serum d3 taken together so went hunting for them myself.

found these:

january 2018
-Calcium: 2.41mmol/L
-Magnesium: 0.81 mmol/L
-25-OH D3 Vit: 82.2 nmol/L

any more recent dates and levels handy? you mentioned deficient d3 recently. what was the serum mag at that time???

[jimmylegs]

i've just realized it's in your blood test results topic, that we've spent so much time recently tweaking details of diet. your online notes will make it easy for you to evaluate magnesium intake. i have to say that i've never thought your routine looked particularly magnesium heavy to my eye. but, you've been working on basic dietary diversity of fruits, veg, grains and protein. digging deeper on specific nutrients has always seemed more like a next step. maybe now is the time

[zen2010]

found these:

january 2018
-Calcium: 2.41mmol/L
-Magnesium: 0.81 mmol/L
-25-OH D3 Vit: 82.2 nmol/L

any more recent dates and levels handy? you mentioned deficient d3 recently. what was the serum mag at that time???

Most recent update from July 2018:
-Magnesium: 0.89 mmol/L (0.81 mmol/L Last January)
-25-OH D3 Vit: 60.9 nmol/L (82.2 nmol/L Last January) - at that time, Mg intake was 600mg/day

[jimmylegs]

ok and with no d3 intake at that time.
so either food intakes at the time plus 600mg via supplements does not meet your individual needs, or one or more factors are hampering absorption.
let's start with low hanging fruit. we may have covered this already, but can you post a link to your magnesium brand and product?

[zen2010]

can you post a link to your magnesium brand and product?

https://www.purepara.com/en/mineraux/25 ... 07000.html
My favorite brand

[jimmylegs]

ah yes i think i have seen that one before. looks like it should be good!

[jimmylegs]

The Safety and Efficacy of a Single Dose (500 mg or 1 g) of Intravenous Magnesium Sulfate in Neuropathic Pain Poorly Responsive to Strong Opioid Analgesics in Patients with Cancer (2000)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2499001359

Abstract
Neuropathic pain may respond poorly to morphine and is often difficult to relieve. Recent attention has been drawn to the role of the N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor in the potentiation of neuropathic pain. Magnesium is known to block the NMDA receptor. It reduces the neuropathic pain response in animals, and attenuates postoperative pain and migraine in humans. We have examined the safety, tolerability, and efficacy of two intravenous doses of magnesium sulfate in 12 patients with neuropathic pain due to malignant infiltration of the brachial or lumbosacral plexus. The first six patients received 500 mg, the remainder 1 g. Apart from a mild feeling of warmth at the time of the injection, both doses were well tolerated. After receiving 500 mg, three patients experienced complete pain relief and two experienced partial pain relief for up to 4 hours duration; pain was unchanged in one patient. After receiving 1 g, one patient experienced complete relief and four experienced partial pain relief of similar duration; pain was unchanged in one patient. Intravenous magnesium sulfate in these doses appears to be safe and well tolerated. A useful analgesic effect may be obtained in some patients and further evaluation is warranted.

[jimmylegs]

Magnesium Metabolism
A Review With Special Reference to the Relationship Between Intracellular Content and Serum Levels (1988)

interesting excerpt (abstract posted previously):

"FUNCTION OF MAGNESIUM IN METABOLIC PROCESSES

Role in the Evolutionary Process

Aikawa postulated that 3.5 billion years ago the Mg+ + ion combined with porphyrin rings, owing to the chelating properties of Mg+ +, forming chlorophyll. Formation of the chlorophyll molecule made photosynthesis, and therefore an oxygen-rich environment, feasible. Magnesium in thechlorophyll molecule is essential for the process of capturing photons from the sun and converting them to adenosine triphosphate (ATP). The Mg-porphyrin complex, excited by the sun, is capable of undergoing reversible photochemical oxidation or reduction, ie, accepting or donating electrons between partner molecules. This process leads to the formation of ATP and oxygen; both are necessary for the next higher step in the evolutionary process, oxidative phosphorylation.3
Geologic evidence suggests that as oxygen was formed by the photosynthetic process, the iron in the oceans, initially in the ferrous state, reacted with the oxygen formed by the photosynthetic process and precipitated in the ferric state, forming rusty layers on the ocean floor.4
As this process of precipitation was completed, oxygen was released into the atmosphere, setting the stage for oxidative phosphorylation—a process that utilizes oxygen and a variety of substrates to produce ATP more efficiently than can photosynthesis.

Role in Metabolic Functions

In addition to its central function in photosynthesis, Mg+ * participates in many of the biochemical reactions that take place in the body, particularly in those processes involving the formation and utilization of ATP. Metals are cofactors required in approximately two thirds of all enzymatic reactions in the body. Magnesium participates in such reactions through its ability to form a chelate, ie, an organometallic coordination complex. ..."

[jimmylegs]

Relationship between magnesium and protein concentrations in plasma of multiple sclerosis patients (1997)
https://journals-scholarsportal-info.pr ... ipomsp.xml

We determined concentrations of total protein, total and ionised magnesium in plasma from 30 patients with definite MS (II3 women and 12 men) aged 28 to 56 years. The results were compared with ones obtained in 30 healthy subjects (16 women and 14 men) aged 19 to 64 years.

The patients were divided into three clinical disease stages according to Disability Status Scale (DSS) by Kurtzke: 8 patients were in mild (I-3) 7 in moderate (4-5) and 15 in severe (&9) neurological disability state. The protein was determined by Lowry method, total magnesium by the BIOTROL Mg Calmagite method and ionised magnesium by magnesium ion-selective
electrode (AVL 988-4).

The results of protein levels obtained in MS patients showed no changes as compared with the control group. The average Mg and Mg2+ contents in plasma of patients with in moderate neurological disability state showed the significantly lower value (p < 0.05) than that seen in plasma of healthy subjects.

The results obtained seem to play some role in the demyelinating process but further studies on MS pathogenesis from the points of view of magnesium and calcium metabolism and the presence of changes in membrane of cells seem to be necessary.