General Nutrition/MS Research

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jimmylegs
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:50 am

@david re spasms.. maybe also work on getting your serum magnesium level up to the very top of the normal range, and your intake of healthy magnesium rich foods up to a level that meets your daily requirements. i'll be surprised if a spasm shows its face once that work is accomplished.
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by David1949 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:06 pm

Jimmylegs
I like to shoot one duck at a time. But the Desatascador won't arrive for a couple of weeks, So I could try magnesium for a while and see if it helps. Let's say I don't want to go back to the doctor to get to get my serum blood level checked. So how much magnesium should I take?
Dave

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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:19 pm

ok here goes. always consider both the amount and the form/source. take enough to meet your needs, emphasize food sources first, then top up with a high quality supplement.

1. amount.
-from food and supplements combined, aim for 7 to 10 mg per kg body weight daily.
so for example for someone 150lbs or 70kg, they need between 490 to 700 mg per day.
choose the higher end of the range for your own weight if highly stressed, highly active, injured or undergoing surgery, or if you consume substances that deplete magnesium such as certain medications eg PPIs, high dose vitamin d3, or alcohol to name a few.
-at a bare minimum (applies to anyone age 4 and up), 420 mg per day.
-no more than 350 mg per day from supplements (i suspect that 350 mg is an outdated number, but can't be certain).

The Requirement of Magnesium by the Normal Adult: Summary and Analysis of Published Data (1964 ffs)
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-a ... 42/4787285

the most recent article to cite the paper above:
Subclinical magnesium deficiency: a principal driver of cardiovascular disease and a public health crisis (2018)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/
('subclinical' means the normal aka reference range is stupid and fails to pick up a problem unless you are very clear on how to interpret 'normal' results).

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... ng.html#p2

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... -2005.html

2. food sources

emphasize healthy magnesium dense foods in diet.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
the top 3 on that list should always be boiled to achieve the nutrient density per serving described.
spinach boil 1 min and drain.
chard boil 3 min and drain.
don't keep or consume the water for either. it's boiled off for a reason (oxalic acid)

3. supplement

mag supplements are by no means created equal. i like magnesium glycinate 200 mg powder capsules.

caution re supplement combinations:
because i happen to be taking supplemental d3 right now, i am very careful to time and balance my magnesium intake properly. my last d3 level was quite low, so i'm taking quite a lot daily for 10 days. (today is day 10). in addition to food, i have to take one 200mg capsule with the d3 in the morning, and then the second 200mg magnesium capsule on its own in the evening. if i skip the evening mag dose, i can feel the morning d3 draining my mag resources and creating side effects.
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:25 am

aside/bump - how goes the magnesium trial, @david?
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by David1949 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:35 am

"aside/bump - how goes the magnesium trial, @david?"

I'm taking 400 mg per day
Day 1 was worse. Spasms at night were bad
Days 2 and 3 were more or less normal for me. Spasms about the same as before.
Day 4 spasms were slightly worse.

I seem to be feeling weaker during the day though. Don't know if that's because of magnesium or just the nature of the beast. I'll keep it up it a while longer and see what happens.

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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:26 am

hmm unpleasant. i would have expected a better result in less time if magnesium was the sole culprit.
perhaps a cofactor situation.
do you have any fairly recent bloodwork on hand to have a look at your other electrolytes? potassium in particular? do you have any b-complex in the regimen, and if not is any handy? i am also wondering about dehydration as a possibility, and am curious about any prescription meds (for anything not just ms) or other supplements you might be on long term.
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by Music » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:36 am

Hi David,

While I don't have spasms much, here is what I do or use for other muscle pains at times. Every day I take 400mg of magnesium bisglycinate, rest my feet on a machine for about 30 - 45 minutes that sends vibrations thru my feet and up my lower legs and the odd time I use a magnesium gel for muscle pain somewhere in my body or if my heels are burning at night. Love the magnesium gel.

Terry

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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by David1949 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:56 am

jimmylegs wrote:am also wondering about dehydration as a possibility, and am curious about any prescription meds (for anything not just ms) or other supplements you might be on long term.
Baclofen 30mg for spasms
alfuzosin 10 mg ( For prostate problems)
Nicotinamide (Vitamin B3) 500 mg
Melatonin 10 mg once in a while to help me sleep

Dehydration could be a problem. I drink about 30 oz of fluids daily. Don't like to drink more because it increases nighttime trips to the bathroom.

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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:56 pm

i hear ya re the nighttime deal.

what's motivating the niacinamide supplement, iima? this paper is super old but hints at the potential for b complex issues if loading just one component

IMBALANCE OF VITAMIN B FACTORS
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 8-0003.pdf

"It is becoming increasingly recognized that in the treatment of pellagrins with nicotinic acid it is essential to provide other members of the B complex and to prescribe a liberal and well-balanced
diet. Our experiments would suggest the necessity for adopting a similar procedure for other B factors, and in particular, when B1 therapy is indicated, for supplying the whole B complex instead of the single vitamin."

would you consider a b50 complex and/or an all around high quality multi-vitamin / multi-mineral?

this article suggests b complex may be helpful.

Neurogenic muscle cramps (2015)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 015-7659-x

B6 in particular is known to interact with magnesium. maybe pairing them up (carefully!) will help.
an interesting paragraph on b6 and interactions with other micro and macronutrients:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... teractions
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by David1949 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:39 am

Jimmylegs
I don't have pellagrins. Dermatologist said B3 can reduce the risk of basal cell skin cancer.

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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:44 pm

i should hope not, considering that pellagrins are patients taking B3 for pellagra aka B3 deficiency. glad we don't need to call in a hostage negotiator.

regardless, the point is that loading just B3 throws the rest of the b complex natural ratio out of whack. if it affects patients using it legitimately for a deficiency, imagine what the consequences might be in individuals megadosing for nominally protective purposes.

i see no evidence of assessment related to other B complex factors in the cancer prevention trial below. there are some holes in the review article used to justify the dosage used, too. no discussion whatsoever of potential impacts of high dose B3 on other B vitamin factors, or related possible side effects. you can't see a negative effect on something you're not even bothering to evaluate!

A Phase 3 Randomized Trial of Nicotinamide for Skin-Cancer Chemoprevention
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1506197

"Previous studies on immunosuppression induced by UV radiation suggested that there is no greater efficacy with 1500 mg than with 500 mg daily,18 but the minimum and maximum effective chemopreventive doses are as yet unknown."

'no greater efficacy with 1500 mg' hmm clearly not worried about the liver damage then. i wonder if imbalance might actually play into B3's known potential for liver damage

B3 daily upper limit (35 mg/d) info:
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/ ... -2005.html

imagine if B3 turns out to be just as protective at 35mg per day.
even though the ULs apply only to supplemental intakes, 35mg looks fairly achievable on food alone (perhaps less so if one is a strict vegetarian however!)
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... #foodchart
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:33 pm

more re the imbalance article above
"Pellagrins, after treatment with nicotinic acid, often show signs of beriberi"

aka thiamine deficit

https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/prof ... ty/thiamin
"Dry beriberi refers to peripheral neurologic deficits due to thiamin deficiency. These deficits are bilateral and roughly symmetric, occurring in a stocking-glove distribution. They affect predominantly the lower extremities, beginning with paresthesias in the toes, burning in the feet (particularly severe at night), muscle cramps in the calves, pains in the legs, and plantar dysesthesias. Calf muscle tenderness, difficulty rising from a squatting position, and decreased vibratory sensation in the toes are early signs. Muscle wasting occurs. Continued deficiency worsens polyneuropathy, which can eventually affect the arms"

might be time for a break from the b3, quick trial of pure b1, then if your issues do resolve, a transfer to b50 complex in future.

fwiw, thiamine features prominently in the old and imperfect klenner protocol for ms. that protocol single handedly delivered my most pronounced improvements from dx in 2006 to now. wish i'd learned sooner.

more recent TiMS xp with thiamine:
http://www.thisisms.com/forum/general-d ... ml#p251675

update: related research from the vault. no serum measurements of anything at all, but fwiw:

Treatment of multiple sclerosis with nicotinic acid and thiamine - Preliminary Report
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamain ... act/545332

excerpt:
"Five cases of advanced multiple sclerosis in which many forms of treatment had been used without appreciably halting the progress of the disease and in which the patients were treated with nicotinic acid and vitamin B1 are reported. Nicotinic acid produces vasodilatation not only of the skin but also of the brain and spinal cord.
Nicotinic acid and vitamin B1 (thiamin chloride) may be given parenterally in considerable doses (nicotinic acid, 120 mg. ;thiamin chloride, 33.2 mg.) for prolonged periods without apparent harmful effects.
Subjective and objective evidence of continued improvement has followed the parenteral use of nicotinic acid and vitamin Bt in the cases of multiple sclerosis here reported." more from this article at http://www.thisisms.com/forum/post25377 ... er#p253778 (the discussion section kills me lol)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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2014 case rpt:Optic Neuropathy, Demyelination in Hyperemesis

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:53 am

interesting:

Simultaneous Optic Neuropathy and Osmotic Demyelinating Syndrome in Hyperemesis Gravidarum (2014)
https://www.amjmedsci.com/article/S0002-9629(15%2930445-6/abstract

pastable portion of first paragraph:
"A 16-year-old African American girl at the 20th week of pregnancy presented with blurry vision. She had been having nausea and vomiting requiring home intravenous ondansetron. She could tolerate only liquids and had lost 30 pounds (approximately 25% of body weight) over the course of pregnancy. On the day of admission, she woke up with painless binocular blurry vision. She denied diplopia, limb weakness, dysarthria, numbness, headaches, and confusion. She went to other hospital where brain computed tomography showed symmetric hypodensity in the pons."

click through to view rest of abstract. main takeaway items for me were the low and normal serum thiamine levels comparison (magnesium and potassium levels were also low)
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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jimmylegs
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:14 pm

hey there dave, any thoughts on the above?
take control of your own health
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ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
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Re: Muscle Spasms & Nutrition - from magnesium to vitB3 to v

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:13 pm

@readers as of tues jul 24 2018 this discussion was moved general discussion to natural approach.
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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