Pain & Inflammation issues

This is the place to ask questions if you have symptoms that suggest MS, but aren't yet diagnosed.
elaine747
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by elaine747 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:36 am

Jimmylegs~Actually on the metabolic panel, it stated the results were out of range, but the only thing the doctor mentioned that needed rechecking was the liver and the sugar. When he had them rechecked, they were normal. The Vit D and B I do wonder about for sure. I'll get him to check those.

I can't see where eating a bowl of fruit a day would hurt either. I guess he adds to and takes away once in a while. :)
I think he does an anti-inflammatory paleo diet. I was surprised he hasn't been eating stuff like bell peppers.

Thanks for always being so responsive. You seem to really get around! Half the time I can't figure out where I am on this board, there is so much info! :)

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jimmylegs
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:04 pm

re the CMP results - good to know in one sense, and in another i am always skeptical of 'normal'. it just means the bell curve, ie 'like most other people' - and in a chronic disease-prone society, that's worth closer scrutiny imho!

paleo bugs me. the evidence base supports whole grain consumption (a diverse array mind you, and within reason in proportion to other foods) and there's just no way grains were not utilized in advance of industrial wheat-centric ag.

Processing of wild cereal grains in the Upper Palaeolithic revealed by starch grain analysis
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature02734

Abstract
Barley (Hordeum vulgare L.) and wheat (Triticum monococcum L. and Triticum turgidum L.) were among the principal ‘founder crops’ of southwest Asian agriculture1. Two issues that were central to the cultural transition from foraging to food production are poorly understood. They are the dates at which human groups began to routinely exploit wild varieties of wheat and barley, and when foragers first utilized technologies to pound and grind the hard, fibrous seeds of these and other plants to turn them into easily digestible foodstuffs. Here we report the earliest direct evidence for human processing of grass seeds, including barley and possibly wheat, in the form of starch grains recovered from a ground stone artefact from the Upper Palaeolithic site of Ohalo II in Israel. Associated evidence for an oven-like hearth was also found at this site, suggesting that dough made from grain flour was baked. Our data indicate that routine processing of a selected group of wild cereals, combined with effective methods of cooking ground seeds, were practiced at least 12,000 years before their domestication in southwest Asia.

no probs re responses :D
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

elaine747
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by elaine747 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:59 pm

Sometimes it's hard to know what's the right way with diets. I personally like the grains. I have a health professional friend who's into herbal products big time and she says eat no fruit due to sugar. I just can't understand that! Anyway, maybe he'll add some of the grasses/grains and other things later on. Guess he's trying to be pretty strict right now on it all, concentrating mostly on vegetables, fish, salmon, chicken, etc.

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jimmylegs
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by jimmylegs » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:24 pm

ya personally i'm not as much about 'like' as i'm about 'research evidence'.

herbal products tend to play a pharma / first aid role imho. they definitely have their place, but it's not replacing essential nutrition. they can come in after that part's done :) saw a nonsense page somewhere suggesting that deficits associated with depression included 'st john's wort deficiency'. spare me :S it's non-essential; you can't be deficient in it.

for sure fruit juice is a no. food guide daily max is something like a 2 oz serving. i prefer eating carefully selected fruit, and drinking water (with and without its having been poured past some kind of caffeinated or herbal modifier haha).

the sugar content is i think what pushes lots of fruits onto the pro-inflammatory side of the spectrum.
i have this awesome file which gives a rating for a huge list of different foods. positive scores are anti-inflammatory, negative scores are pro.
i just filtered it on a selection of fruits as follows:

Acerola cherries 347
Strawberries, fresh 14
Blackberries, fresh 4
Apricots, fresh 3
Raspberries, fresh 1
Cherries, sour, fresh -3
Apple, with skin -9
Apple, peeled -10
Apple juice -12
Blueberries, fresh -15
Cherries, sweet, fresh -26
Banana, fresh -38
Apricots, dried -56
Banana chips, dried -132

and that's why i load up on the strawberries, blackberries and raspberries in my daily fruit mix (have never encountered acerola cherries to date). other cherries and blueberries are in there too, but fewer than the others. the list also highlights why i am glad i don't like bananas lol

hopefully re the veg, all are highly nutrient-dense options :) my fave food site recommends i believe it's 3 x 1.5 c servings of dark leafy greens (has info for chard, spinach and kale but things like beet greens and collard greens would likely also make the grade) per week. and a fave old japanese approach suggests aiming for 30 diff food items each day, distributed across 6 food groups. great way to emphasize dietary diversity!!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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NHE
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by NHE » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:50 pm

elaine747 wrote:NHE..Not sure what you mean by it's too early to think of drugs. Do you mean he should think it all through before he considers them?
I should have been more specific. I had meant to say MS drugs.

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Scott1
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by Scott1 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:45 pm

Hi,
You mentioned your son says he has inflammation. Can you go into a bit more details about what he means by that? Was it his observation or did someone conduct a test and came to that conclusion? Inflammation is a broad area so specifics might help.

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elaine747
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by elaine747 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 am

My son has told me that he has inflammation. Would that be unusual for a person to know they have that?

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jimmylegs
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:06 am

i'd lean to yes, and ask for clarification.

related research:

Is poor self-rated health associated with low-grade inflammation in 43 110 late adolescent men of the general population? A cross-sectional study (2016)
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/4/e009440

very old data, but still interesting.

Patient self-assessment and physician’s assessment of rheumatoid arthritis activity: which is more realistic in remission status? A comparison with ultrasonography (2013)
https://academic.oup.com/rheumatology/a ... 43/1802374

i just skimmed a pretty hokey looking non academic article about 'subtle signs of inflammation'. every item could easily have been the result of some other cause or causes. not very helpful!
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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jimmylegs
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Re: Pain & Inflammation issues

Post by jimmylegs » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:12 am

elaine747 wrote:So, regarding these tests for things like B12 to see if one is deficient and getting the right level for someone with MS, would it be best to go to a specific type of doctor to do these blood tests and then they suggest an increase in a certain vitamin? I don't think there are any MS specialists in my area. Do regular neurologists do blood tests and try to get a patient's vitamin levels in line? I sometimes have gotten the idea that regular neurologists are just interested in handing out the drugs and that's it. Is it something one has to do on their own~getting the blood work and figuring it all out?
jimmylegs wrote:for other tests yes see if the doc will do you up a requisition and if not, then depending where you are there are a variety of private options. states are good with all kinds of online choices, UK's super expensive from what i've seen, canada's a bit of a pain. eg in ontario if the doc will order it for you, great - but the govt won't pay for d3 test any more. (they will cover other less popular tests - ie ones that cost the govt less $$$ - including b12).
the family doc to start. the neuro should rule out b12 deficiency and may also have a look at d3 status. if at first you don't succeed, try again. the important thing is to get your own copy of the results. don't be pacified by 'it's normal'. even when the result is between the max and min values on the lab results.
jimmylegs wrote:atypical but useful: serum magnesium. serum zinc. serum copper.

nice to know but not need to know: serum uric acid.

there are more options, but no sense digging deeper until you have at least some of the above :)
mainstream docs, ms specialist or otherwise, are unlikely to look at the other 'usual suspect' nutrients in ms. for those, a more independent approach may be needed. it depends on the docs' reponse(s) to requests for testing. there's a whole community here with xp figuring out what results mean!

an example of what it can look like when information gathering is a success (18 pages of posts covering at least 18 months, but shows the potental effect of diet and lifestyle progress over time):
http://www.thisisms.com/forum/introduct ... 28969.html
take control of your own health
pursue optimal self care at least as actively as a diagnosis
ask for referrals to preventive health care specialists eg dietitians
don't let suboptimal self care muddy any underlying diagnostic picture!

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