Confused

[HikingSpider]

Hello

I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction. I'm having MS like symptoms tingling in my feet, cold water feeling in my legs, muscle twitching, ice pick headaches, fatigue, brain fog, etc. Here is the problem, I also have had Lyme, I was in treatment for 1.5 years. I had a Lyme test done 2 weeks ago and it was negative. I now have reactive EBV and low D. I'm currently taking 50k of D2. The vitamin D wasn't as low as it's been, it was 22 this time. Last time it was 13. Dr. is doing a 'wait and see" with me. I really don't know which avenue to pursue. My blood work is still off has been since contracting Lyme. White blood cells are high and CRP is a little high, again since Lyme. Everything else is normal. I know so many symptoms overlap, it becomes so confusing.

I had a MRI done 4 years ago when I first developed thunderclap headaches. It was normal.

Any ideas are welcomed. Thank you in advance.

[lyndacarol]

I now have reactive EBV and low D. I'm currently taking 50k of D2. The vitamin D wasn't as low as it's been, it was 22 this time. Last time it was 13.

Vitamin D2 is much less effective than vitamin D3 in humans. (2004)
Laura A. G. Armas, Bruce W Hollis, and Robert P Heaney
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15531486
Full Text (5 pages): http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1210/jc.2004-0360

Abstract
Vitamins D(2) and D(3) are generally considered to be equivalent in humans. Nevertheless, physicians commonly report equivocal responses to seemingly large doses of the only high-dose calciferol (vitamin D(2)) available in the U.S. market. The relative potencies of vitamins D(2) and D(3) were evaluated by administering single doses of 50,000 IU of the respective calciferols to 20 healthy male volunteers, following the time course of serum vitamin D and 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25OHD) over a period of 28 d and measuring the area under the curve of the rise in 25OHD above baseline. The two calciferols produced similar rises in serum concentration of the administered vitamin, indicating equivalent absorption. Both produced similar initial rises in serum 25OHD over the first 3 d, but 25OHD continued to rise in the D(3)-treated subjects, peaking at 14 d, whereas serum 25OHD fell rapidly in the D(2)-treated subjects and was not different from baseline at 14 d. Area under the curve (AUC) to d 28 was 60.2 ng.d/ml (150.5 nmol.d/liter) for vitamin D(2) and 204.7 (511.8) for vitamin D(3) (P < 0.002). Calculated AUC(infinity) indicated an even greater differential, with the relative potencies for D(3):D(2) being 9.5:1. Vitamin D(2) potency is less than one third that of vitamin D(3). Physicians resorting to use of vitamin D(2) should be aware of its markedly lower potency and shorter duration of action relative to vitamin D(3).



Vitamin D3 Is More Potent than Vitamin D2 in Humans (2010)
JCEM (Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism)
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2010-2230
"Conclusion:D3 is approximately 87% more potent in raising and maintaining serum 25(OH)D concentrations and produces 2- to 3-fold greater storage of vitamin D than does equimolar D2. For neither was there evidence of sequestration in fat, as had been postulated for doses in this range. Given its greater potency and lower cost, D3 should be the preferred treatment option when correcting vitamin D deficiency."

The case against ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) as a vitamin supplement (2006)
Lisa Houghton and Reinhold Vieth
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/694.full




The beneficial effects of vitamin D3 on reducing antibody titers against Epstein-Barr virus in multiple sclerosis patients. (2015)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=25666504

"The aim of this study was to investigate whether vitamin D3 supplementation in MS patients could influence the immune response against latent EBV infection.… All the patients were seropositive for EBV prior to vitamin D supplementation.… Our findings confirm that antibody titers against EBV in MS patients rise after the onset of the disease and indicate that vitamin D3 supplementation could limit augmentation of these titers in MS patients."


The GrassrootsHealth organization (http://www.grassrootshealth.net) recommends the vitamin D level be at least 40-60 ng/ml.

[jimmylegs]

hi there welcome to the forum.
found this info i had posted a couple yrs back:

and regarding lyme disease:
Manganese and Zinc Regulate Virulence Determinants in Borrelia burgdorferi
http://iai.asm.org/content/81/8/2743.short

and epstein barr virus (in vitro):
Characterization of the hsp70 response in lymphoblasts from aged and centenarian subjects and differential effects of in vitro zinc supplementation
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 6504002426
"we analyzed in vitro the time course expression of the hsp70 gene ... in heat treated Epstein Barr virus ... in vitro zinc supplementation had an age-dependent effect on hsp70 expression..."

definitely managed in the past to get rid of the viral load for a patient who had had chronic mono.

as posted since i started writing, D2 is not the best form of vit D for people, it is effectively much less after your body converts to a usable form. can we assume that's weekly? do the docs have you on any cofactors to support d3 absorption? given that d3 is being recalcitrant (better to be up around 40 at least, assuming you are talking ng/ml for units) and you also have elevated CRP as well, that's a couple things pointing at low magnesium.

related:
Dietary Magnesium and C-reactive Protein Levels
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 5.10719461
Among US adults, 68% consumed less than the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of magnesium, and 19% consumed less than 50% of the RDA. After controlling for demographic and cardiovascular risk factors, adults who consumed <RDA of magnesium were 1.48–1.75 times more likely to have elevated CRP than adults who consumed ≥RDA (Odds Ratio [OR] for intake <50% RDA = 1.75, 95% Confidence Interval [CI] 1.08–2.87). Adults who were over age 40 with a BMI >25 and who consumed <50% RDA for magnesium were 2.24 times more likely to have elevated CRP (95% CI 1.13–4.46) than adults ≥RDA.

one other comment about this article. from the abstract:
Current dietary guidelines recommend adequate intake of magnesium (310–420mg daily) in order to maintain health and lower the risk of cardiovascular disease.

in other research i've seen 7-10 mg/kg body weight per day as the magnesium requirement. thought i would run this against the range above; that means if someone who is using the 10 mg/kg/d recommendation adheres to the 420mg upper end, they only weigh 42kg or about 90lbs :S

[HikingSpider]

Thank you for all the info and links. I will read them all to gain much needed knowledge.

I take 400mg of magnesium a day. I have been doing that since the Lyme diagnoses. 2013

Yes, 50k iu one per week. The D2 did raise my D levels last time. This time they have me on it for 16 weeks, that's twice as long as before.

Forgive me if I'm wrong. I thought vitamin D2 was Plant based and D3 was sun based? How do you bottle sunshine? I'm missing something.

[HikingSpider]

One other question. Has anyone had genetic testing done? I had it done not because I'm a fanatic. I did it for financial reasons. I was charged $1000 dollars for one blood test to check for a gene mutation, my Lyme Dr. had ordered it and insurance didn't cover it. I didn't know that at the time, not till I received the bill. So I paid $100 to have all my entire genetic make-up done. Well worth the money. Anyway, I have several heterozygous mutations on HLA genes which lead to Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) issues. I of course realize that having the mutations may in fact mean nothing. It is always stuck in the back of my mind.

It concerns me that some of the mutations I have are linked to MS. One example HLA-DRB1 is linked to MS and I'm heterozygous on this one.

[jimmylegs]

no problem! can you share the form of your 400mg magnesium product? does it say magnesium oxide, or citrate, or chelated magnesium, or glycinate, threonate, aspartate, or a blend of any of those??
d2 will work, just not as well. d3 is created in animal tissue with exposure to sunshine, as long as it has enough ingredients on hand (cholesterol for example, and HDL in particular where ppl are concerned http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/12/6/671.short and also cofactors such as magnesium) to make the interactions work.
cod liver oil and lanolin are typical animal sources of d3.
your body makes 7-dehydrocholesterol (ie pre vitamin d) when skin is exposed to the sun. previt d is converted to 25(OH)vitD3 primarily via hydroxylation in your liver. then your body converts 25(OH)vitD3 into 1,25(OH)2vitD3, the active steroid hormone form of d3, via another hydroxylation in your kidney. clear as mud i am sure

[jimmylegs]

aw yesss nutrigenomics have not had it done, but this:

Expression of the Multiple Sclerosis-Associated MHC Class II Allele HLA-DRB1*1501 Is Regulated by Vitamin D
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/a ... en.1000369
Multiple Sclerosis (MS) is a complex neurological disease with a strong genetic component. The Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) on chromosome 6 exerts the strongest genetic effect on disease risk. A region at or near the HLA-DRB1 locus in the MHC influences the risk of MS. HLA-DRB1 has over 400 different alleles. The dominant haplotype of Northern Europe, marked by the presence of DRB1*1501, increases risk of MS by 3-fold. The environment also plays a key role in MS. The most striking illustration of this is the geographical distribution of the disease in populations matched for ethnicity. This has led to the proposal that sunshine, and in particular, vitamin D, is an environmental factor influencing the risk of MS. Circumstantial evidence supporting this comes from studies showing the involvement of vitamin D in immune and nervous system function. The current investigation sought to uncover any relationship between vitamin D and HLA-DRB1. It was found that vitamin D specifically interacts with HLA-DRB1*1501 to influence its expression. This study therefore provides more direct support for the already strong epidemiological evidence implicating sunlight and vitamin D in the determination of MS risk, and implies that vitamin D supplementation at critical time periods may be key to disease prevention.

[HikingSpider]

no problem! can you share the form of your 400mg magnesium product? does it say magnesium oxide, or citrate, or chelated magnesium, or glycinate, threonate, aspartate, or a blend of any of those??
d2 will work, just not as well. d3 is created in animal tissue with exposure to sunshine, as long as it has enough ingredients on hand (cholesterol for example, and HDL in particular where ppl are concerned http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/12/6/671.short and also cofactors such as magnesium) to make the interactions work.
cod liver oil and lanolin are typical animal sources of d3.
your body makes 7-dehydrocholesterol (ie pre vitamin d) when skin is exposed to the sun. previt d is converted to 25(OH)vitD3 primarily via hydroxylation in your liver. then your body converts 25(OH)vitD3 into 1,25(OH)2vitD3, the active steroid hormone form of d3, via another hydroxylation in your kidney. clear as mud i am sure

Thank you for the education:) You explained it very well.

The bottle says magnesium oxide. I knew there were a few different types of mag, but I never thought there would be this much variety. Is one better then another?

[HikingSpider]

aw yesss nutrigenomics have not had it done, but this:

Expression of the Multiple Sclerosis-Associated MHC Class II Allele HLA-DRB1*1501 Is Regulated by Vitamin D
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/a ... en.1000369
Multiple Sclerosis (MS) is a complex neurological disease with a strong genetic component. The Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) on chromosome 6 exerts the strongest genetic effect on disease risk. A region at or near the HLA-DRB1 locus in the MHC influences the risk of MS. HLA-DRB1 has over 400 different alleles. The dominant haplotype of Northern Europe, marked by the presence of DRB1*1501, increases risk of MS by 3-fold. The environment also plays a key role in MS. The most striking illustration of this is the geographical distribution of the disease in populations matched for ethnicity. This has led to the proposal that sunshine, and in particular, vitamin D, is an environmental factor influencing the risk of MS. Circumstantial evidence supporting this comes from studies showing the involvement of vitamin D in immune and nervous system function. The current investigation sought to uncover any relationship between vitamin D and HLA-DRB1. It was found that vitamin D specifically interacts with HLA-DRB1*1501 to influence its expression. This study therefore provides more direct support for the already strong epidemiological evidence implicating sunlight and vitamin D in the determination of MS risk, and implies that vitamin D supplementation at critical time periods may be key to disease prevention.

So it all comes back to vitamin D. I will make sure I continue taking vitamin D. Such a simple solution, sounds wonderful to me. Thank you again for all your help. You have made my day

[jimmylegs]

yep magnesium oxide is a great laxative but is poorly absorbed. technically it contains the most elemental mag. but it just doesn't stick where it's needed.
best to have a highly soluble absorbable form. i like magnesium glycinate (and NOT magnesium BISglycinate) the best ). i take it on an empty stomach a few mins before a meal. if i want to take any mag to settle down before sleep at bedtime, i go with mag citrate instead. that one comes in a powder and you can mix it up into a hot or cold drink. i have only ever gotten plain, but i hear good things about the raspberry lemon flavour! mag citrate is further towards the insoluble end of the spectrum, though.

my routine: i go for food sources first, then a mag glycinate top up, and only mag citrate if i really feel i'd be better off with a second supplemental dose that day.
because i've worked hard to max dietary sources, i've found a second mag glycinate pill in a day can be too much and start to make my muscles feel a bit sluggish. no thanks!

[jimmylegs]

re the genetic piece, so true! although developmental prevention vs treatment are two different things. things seem to be looking good for more than just folic acid getting a particular emphasis for people-in-progress. i look forward to having more time to understand the nuances

[jimmylegs]

also re the infection aspect, do consider having a look at how your daily diet and supplement regimen stacks up for zinc, against daily intake recommendations for your gender and age group. try to aim for between the minimum and the safe upper limit.

[HikingSpider]

yep magnesium oxide is a great laxative but is poorly absorbed. technically it contains the most elemental mag. but it just doesn't stick where it's needed.
best to have a highly soluble absorbable form. i like magnesium glycinate (and NOT magnesium BISglycinate) the best ). i take it on an empty stomach a few mins before a meal. if i want to take any mag to settle down before sleep at bedtime, i go with mag citrate instead. that one comes in a powder and you can mix it up into a hot or cold drink. i have only ever gotten plain, but i hear good things about the raspberry lemon flavour! mag citrate is further towards the insoluble end of the spectrum, though.

my routine: i go for food sources first, then a mag glycinate top up, and only mag citrate if i really feel i'd be better off with a second supplemental dose that day.
because i've worked hard to max dietary sources, i've found a second mag glycinate pill in a day can be too much and start to make my muscles feel a bit sluggish. no thanks!

Will mag citrate help with sleep? I've had insomnia for 5 years. It would be awesome to sleep again.

[HikingSpider]

re the genetic piece, so true! although developmental prevention vs treatment are two different things. things seem to be looking good for more than just folic acid getting a particular emphasis for people-in-progress. i look forward to having more time to understand the nuances

From what I've learned genetics will play a huge roll in healing people. From blocked detox pathways to what medicine will work best for the individual. The problem is, just because you have a mutation doesn't mean it will effect you. They still have to work that part out. It is also kind of disconcerting knowing that based on your personal make-up you will be susceptible to certain illnesses.

As for folic acid I have one of the mutations and it does effect me. Fortunately for me it's the most common mutation. If I remember correctly, 60% of the population has the mutation.

[jimmylegs]

yes if you get good quality magnesium it should help with sleep. it doesn't have to be citrate and you don't have to take it in the evening. the reason i mention citrate associated with bedtime, is because that is one form i feel comfortable taking on an empty stomach and then lying down. and sometimes if i'm busy i just didn't get around to doing a better form earlier in the day like i should have.
i always try to take mag glycinate earlier in the day, and a few mins before food. it's supposed to be absorbed in small intestine so good to take it and kind of wash it down a bit. not good to take right *with* food however, because to my understanding it then gets bound up with other things and ends up being less bioavailable.

re magnesium and insomnia - when science makes me laugh: http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/12635882
no let's not just add some mag. we'll just turn the lights off and back on again