CCSVI and CCVBP

A forum to discuss Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency and its relationship to Multiple Sclerosis.
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HappyPoet
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Post by HappyPoet »

Hi Dr. Flanagan,

If I can't find a chiro with a Cox table, is there another kind of chiro that could help my lower spine? Having major back surgery is out of the question because the physical, emotional, and mental stresses of the surgery and recovery would be the end of me, so I will not have a consult with a neurosurgeon nor an orthopedic surgeon.

From now on, I intend to be proactive with my AO rechecks; no more disabling numb feet nor pain of the 'MS' Hug for me!

I've said similar words before, and I want to say them again: You show how a fine gentleman acts.

Thank you for all your help. You are a wonderful doctor by every measure.

:)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi costume,

Thank you for visiting! We all owe you so much thanks for bringing Dr. Flanagan here. You and your country are in my prayers. I'm so happy to know that you're doing well.

:)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Blossom,

I meant to say this earlier -- so sorry about the flu you caught... what an unfortunate set back. Why is it, I wonder, that just when we get started on the right path, we get shoved off that path in super rude ways? Please know that I pray you won't have anymore set backs... an emergency appendectomy followed by this bad strain of flu, you poor thing. Hopefully, it will be nothing but smooth sailing ahead as you find out all that UCC can do for you.

:)
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uprightdoc
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Post by uprightdoc »

HappyPoet wrote:If I can't find a chiro with a Cox table, is there another kind of chiro that could help my lower spine? Having major back surgery is out of the question because the physical, emotional, and mental stresses of the surgery and recovery would be the end of me, so I will not have a consult with a neurosurgeon nor an orthopedic surgeon.
Hello Poet,

Thank-you for your support and the compliment.

There are many types of flexion-distraction tables in use that are good but not nearly as good as the capability and features of the Cox 7 table for spondylosis, stenosis and scoliosis. All types of intermittent traction tables pump the bones and cartilage of the spine which can correct and rehabilitate bad segment. In addition, the up and down movement of flexion-distraction tables create waves that help move blood and CSF. The long y-axis traction stretches the spine along its length and is often incorporated with flexion distraction. The new tables have full featured headpieces similar to tailpieces. Complicated cases such as yours or Blossom for example require the best tables but very few doctors have them.

There is another table called the Zeneith 100 that is equally good and very similar but slightly different with different advantages. For example the Zeneith 100 allows the doctor to straighten out a sidewards curve (scoliosis) in the spine. This is important because in addition to correcting segments if you are trying to pump CSF it is better to have the spinal canal aligned properly. The link below is to a youtube presentation by the manufacturer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHH2mx4 ... re=related

I will be discussing tables more as my site develops and their role in degenerative conditions of the spine and neurodegenerative conditions of the cord.

If you cannot find a full spine chiropractor with a good table then sacrooccipital technique (SOT) is a good choice. It is a non-force soft tissue type approach. It uses craniopathy and pelvic blocks along with methods of manual CSF pumping.
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DrDiana
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Post by DrDiana »

I think everyone has grown weary of this thread, as I have.

It is clear that you do not have a reference for your statement, and there is no study in the UK...I was not out of line to ask for the reference.

If you are taking information from me, then please state that, and don't claim it as your own.

I ignored it the first time, but the second time was too much, especially when you wouldn't return my emails. In social media, anyone can say anything, and the only recourse is to point it out on the public forum where it originated.

I am sorry if this upset anyone, but trust me, no one was more upset than I was.

Let's move past this and find answers for everyone here... I look forward to -- looking forward!
Dr. Diana

Special interest in "brain drains" and how they affect numerous conditions, including MS, Ehlers-Danlos, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc. I am a therapeutic optometrist on professional disability with EDS, POTS, CCSVI, mast cell disea
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Post by Cece »

Dr. Diana, here is the UK study on conditions associated with MS, including ehler danos as well as asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, type I diabetes mellitus, pernicious anaemia, autoimmune thyroid disease, uveitis, seronegative spondyloarthropathies, bipolar disorder and melanoma:

http://msj.sagepub.com/content/10/5/575.short

I have not read the full study so I don't know what value it might have in giving support to Dr. Flanagan's statements or not.

I take it back, it's probably this one:
http://msj.sagepub.com/content/14/4/567.short

You were not out of line at all in asking for a reference. It is common here at TIMS for research to be linked when appropriate.
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Post by NZer1 »

Thank you so much from all of us Cece, I for one hope this will move things on so we can get back to the purpose, helping and not ego stroking.
Thanks HP as always and thanks Dr for being so patient and as HP said gentlemanly, it was a good mentoring session for me.
Regards,
Nigel
Psychologist and philosopher, William James, once said, "The deepest principle in human nature is the craving to be appreciated."
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DrDiana
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Post by DrDiana »

Cece wrote:Dr. Diana, here is the UK study
I take it back, it's probably this one:
http://msj.sagepub.com/content/14/4/567.short
You were not out of line at all in asking for a reference. It is common here at TIMS for research to be linked when appropriate.
Thanks, Cece, for everything. Although this study is referenced in my paper and shows that there is more EDS in the MS population, I'm certain there is no paper that says the corollary is true.

It is what EDS researchers are working hard to prove, though, one way or the other. I hope when it is figured out, it gives us answers for M.S., too!

I appreciate your efforts!
:)
Dr. Diana

Special interest in "brain drains" and how they affect numerous conditions, including MS, Ehlers-Danlos, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc. I am a therapeutic optometrist on professional disability with EDS, POTS, CCSVI, mast cell disea
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Post by uprightdoc »

The case mentioned below is is another interesting case that contacted me through my wordpress blog.
Hi Dr. Flannagan,

I have an arachnoid cyst at T3 which i think is blocking fliud and nowe have been told i have possible MS with no brain lesions, but one lesion at T8 and obands in my fluid. That was 2 years ago and i did not take any meds…since then i went to upper cervical dr. who said my atlas was waaay off and said it should be at a 0 and it was at a 4 or 5…so she adjusted it with the metal thing (not sure what it is called) and she got it to a 2 but the rest of my neck (which was already crooked) got even more crooked and now i have even more neck pain then i had. After that i also went to a reumotologis who said i have EDS so now i’m thinking i shouldnt have gottne my atlas adjusted like that. I don’t know what to do but i think has alot to do with what is going on in my CNS. I also have the tight muscle in my neck like the person who wrote 2 above me. I have had it for a long time even before all this started.

Please help and is there surgery to fix my neck b/c if I have EDS no adjustments hold….when my neck feels better my lower back/hips hurt really bad and i have lots of nerve pain in my thighs…Could the thigh pain be caused by my hips?
Thanks!!!!!!!!


Hi Amanda,
I replied previously but I don’t see it here so I will repeat myself. The arachnoid cysts can be removed surgically, drained or shunted but they are most likely not the cause of your symptoms. They do, however, suggest that you have fluid stress in the thoracic spine. Based on your symptoms, your EDS diagnosis, there is a good possiblity you have curvature problems in the spine causing the stress.

I don’t know what type of specific upper cervical method the doctor is using but most methods use the hands. Atlas Orthogonal uses a stylus device mounted on a stand set to specific angles with the patient lying on a special table in side posture on special headpiece set to the correct angle before the adjustment. It is a hands-free upper cervical method.

That said, you have many rheumatological, not neurological type complaints. You have neck pain, low back pain, hip pain and thigh pain. It sounds like myofacitis or fibromyalgia type symptoms, which makes sense in your case, especially if your have EDS.
In lieu of a good upper cervical chiropractor, I would suggest you try the best sacrooccipital (SOT) chiropractor you can find and get your full spine checked. You may have a twist in your pelvis and low back that will affect all the muscles of the spine up to the base of the skull. SOT is a gentle non-force method that balances the entire spine head to toe and it won’t hurt the EDS.

I would certainly give it a try before you consider more aggressive surgical intervention. If you need help finding someone in your area let me know.
MFDC


I mention connective tissue disorders in my book because rheumatoid arthritis and lupus erythematosis have been associated with normal pressure hydrocephalus. I also mention cleidocraniodysostosis in my book which is a failure of cartilage to turn to bone that results in weak joints with excess motion. It also causes failure of the joints of the skull to unite which results in deforamtion of the cranial vault and basilar impression of the posterior fossa.

In contrast to EDS most connective tissue disorders cause stiffness and loss of motion, which is in fact a key differentiating factor for EDS. I also mentioned Marfan's way back in this thread because it is associated with basilar invagination of the upper cervical spine into the posterior fossa. Rheumatoid arthritis can also cause basilar invagination. Marfans and EDS are inherited connective tissue disoders. The autoimmune inflammatory connective tissue disorders include RA, ankylosing spondylitis. lupus erythematosis, scleroderma and Sjorgren's disease. I still have a patho specimen of ankylosing spondylitis. I have a great deal of experience with autoimmune inflammatory connective tissue disorders.

Aside from rheumatoid arthritis, EDS is the only other conditon generally associated with atlantoaxial instability and pannus formation on C2 but for completely different reasons. In EDS it is due to excess motion caused by lack of strength in connective tissues. In RA it is due to erosion of connective tissue. I have a rare but well known MS case that was referred to me by a TiMS member. His problems started with what was though to be discoid lupus erythematosis. Years later he got psoriasis and years after that was suspected by his rheumatologist as having RA. He sent me his MRI and he had erosion and retroflexion of the dens with a C2 possible C2 pannus formation. He now has MS symptoms but no lesions. He is a very rare autoimmune inflammatory connective tissue case in my opinion. I have found one other rare case in the literature of a pannus associated with psoriatic arthritis.

Connective tissue disorder and rheumatology are very personal to me. I learned about rheumatology and connectve tissue disorders decades ago. My mother developed severe psoriasis after my sister was born. I was ten. My mother got RA shortly afterwards. My sister never recalls my mother not being in a wheelchair. She was in special hospitals for a large part of her life for joint replacements and physiotherapy. I will be covering more on connective tissue disoders as my website develops, especially since I am personally affected by it.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:47 am, edited 6 times in total.
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NZer1
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Post by NZer1 »

Thank you for this Dr. .
Our local girl has just undergone cyst treatment and decompression for Chari Malformation and when we talked on Tuesday, she talked about CSF flows and if there is a way to improve or restore flows.
This is something she is beginning to study on the net. As a personal observation she would benefit having her spine checked by a specialist Chiro, posture indicates some serious alignment issues that will be the root of her problems.
Again I find it so incredibly frustrating that there is no support for people in our area. We both have problems that are brushed aside no matter how passively we present our case to mainstream medicals.
When a neuro is seen to dismiss us on our health records we are almost shut out of any other field as well.
Any way the question comes back to CSF flows for us both. With my disc impinging on the thecal sac and our friends Chari flow issues there seems to be no interest in the importance of CSF flow.
*Is there articles that you know of that we can reference to give to our GP's, so we can begin a dialogue that will get us to the right people in the medical feild?
It feels at times as though we are the teachers not the patients!
After asking for referrals for vascular specialists to check my blood flow returns through jugular and azygos because I have symptoms which match the impeded flow symptoms, I now seem to have become the enemy, and my GP won't reply to my emails. Strange I thought!
And at the same time I spoke about the radiologist findings from the xrays taken and that I had looked at the xrays and was disappointed at the quality of the most important one (open mouth) given the discussion leading to the referral, strangely again I have lost responses to my passive questioning and request for opinions on the xrays and also a request for a second opinion by the Neurology staff appointed to our Health Region., after being dumped by the incumbent Neurologist without ever meeting him and without consultation from a Neurologist for over three years.
Oh well I've asked my question and had a moan. Thanks for listening.
Tomorrow is going to be great, I meet the home help supervisor tomorrow, and establish a cleaning program.
Regards all,
Nigel
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uprightdoc
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Post by uprightdoc »

NZer1 wrote: ... I find it so incredibly frustrating that there is no support for people in our area. We both have problems that are brushed aside no matter how passively we present our case to mainstream medicals ... the question comes back to CSF flows for us both. With my disc impinging on the thecal sac and our friends Chari flow issues there seems to be no interest in the importance of CSF flow.
*Is there articles that you know of that we can reference to give to our GP's, so we can begin a dialogue that will get us to the right people in the medical feild? Nigel
Nigel,
In my opinion your problems are probably due tension on the cord causing a functional Chiari malformation type situation with compression of the anterior aspect of the brainstem against the clivus of the base of the skull. The tension in the cord is causing the Lehermitte's sign. An upright MRI with flexion and extension views makes a great deal of sense.

I have sources and citations spanning decades. They are included in the papers I wrote starting in 1988. The book is based on those papers. So is my next book. Some of the original papers are ancient and difficult if not impossible to find on the internet but they are true gems, such as those from Drs. Dean Falk and Harry Shapiro. Falk was gracious enough to send me copies of her papers. I have a copy of Dr. Shapiro's monograph on the correction for artificial deformation from 1928. I also have pictures of the skulls I studied but they are on slides and need to be converted to digital when I get around to it. Eckenhoff was one of the first people to write about the impact of the vertebral veins on intracranial pressure because it impacts surgical positions. You won't find his paper on the internet. There are other Eckenhoff's however, with more recent research on the subject.

I will be including old and new sources and citations as my website develops. The new upright MRI studies are particularly interesting.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig through my files for all the studies at this time.

Milhorat and Bolognese authored the study on functional Chiari. It's a great paper. I would like to eventually use their sketches of the upper cervical angle but unfortunately I haven't been able to convert them to jpeg files and my website won't accept them as part of document file.

None of the physicians, scientists or reseachers I sent my book to, including Noam Alperin, have questioned the science in it. What's more, Alperin's specialty is in idiopathic intracranial hypertension (high brain pressure of unknow cause), normal pressure hydrocepahlus, and Chiari malformations. He is well aware of the studies and science and doesn't need me to repeat them. He is currently working with NUCCA on migraine studies using upright MRI.

The science in the book and on the blog and website is well established from topics on physical anthropology to neurology. It's the theory that needs to be tested and the best way to test it is with upright MRI, which I thoroughly discuss in my book.

That said, there aren't any studies I know of that will open a closed mind.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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uprightdoc
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Post by uprightdoc »

If anyone is interested here is a link on EDS and connective tissue disorders I thought you might find interesting. The information was presented by Dr. Milhorat in 2006. He particularly mentions EDS and Chiari malformations causing anterior brainstem compression but as I discuss in my book other connective tissue disorders such as lupus and RA can cause similar problems with the brainstem and cord as well. Forward malposition of the head and neck from kyphosis can also cause brainstem compression and Lehermitte's. My next wordpress blog will be on kyphosis and should be out tomorrow.
<shortened url>

I discuss elastin, collagen and connective tissues in my book as well as the impact of degeneration of connective tissues on the spine and canal.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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NZer1
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Post by NZer1 »

Thanks Dr. I have emailed my GP and he is looking at what we can do. It makes a difference having your support and your languaging the issues as you see them. For me to talk with my GP is ok, its getting to the next level when he is writing referrals or requesting support that things get very difficult.
I believe my learning curve and ability at presenting things plus the support you have given has made a big difference with credibility and direction.
Thanks Dr.
Regards Nigel
ps my home help meeting went very well. :D
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ccsvi

Post by blossom »

happypoet, thanks so much for your warm prayers and thoughts. that means a lot to me-so back at you. so happy you are seeing the improvements and WOW you and bestadmom participating in a trial that i'd lay money is gonna have a hugh impact on not only us with symptoms they call ms but many medical problems. AND-THE THE TREATMENTS IN THIS TRIAL WON'T LEAVE YOU GLOWING IN THE DARK, YOUR LIVER WILL NOT SUFFER, YOUR HEART WILL STILL BEAT ON TIME, YOUR BRAIN WILL BE IN ORDER ON AND ON.

a while back dr. flanagan said that chiropractics needed that push behind it-as ccsvi did-to get the attention and respect in the medical world. "that i always felt was long over due." so, when the mainstream try to push it aside we gotta push back."
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blossom
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Post by blossom »

hi dr. flanagan, i have got to update you on things going on with me and get your input. as you are my "mentor". but will do later.

ok, remember some of my private pm's to you a good while back?

now, the world pretty much knows that montel williams is gonna be on dr. oz
and ccsvi is going to be really put out there. which is great and hopefully this will benefit us all.

now, it is only fair and right that ccvbp be known to the world.

i applaude the chiro.'s and thankful there is a trial going on we are aware of.

it would be the greatest thing since chocolate if you would get on dr. oz. i doubt very much that there is anyone else that could explain the spine and ccvbp like you can. any naysayers or doubters would have their work cut
out for them and they are not gonna stump you. how about you and dr. shelling and perhaps a chiro. conducting the trial getting together. WOW!

as, on other dr. oz's shows there are usually patients that come on who have benefited from a health problem the dr.'s have treated-such as montel will be doing.

well, you have "the happypoet, bestadmon,cosumesnational, civickiller, and many more who have benefited. "lasting with no side effects!"

besides, it is vital in my view that this be one of very first test and treatment with many diseases but especially when neurological is involved. and caught early as with anything the better results. i am a perfect example of being poo poooed by the med. field and though i searched and tried chiro.'s i did not have the info. available to me i have now. age and yrs. of symptoms has taken it's toll-and it is a slippery slope at this point

everyone deserves to hear the info. and knowledge you offer.

i
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Re: ccsvi

Post by costumenastional »

blossom wrote:i doubt very much that there is anyone else that could explain the spine and ccvbp like you can.i
This makes two of us.
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Post by uprightdoc »

Hello Blossom,

Thanks for the support and tips. I can tell by the tone of your message you're getting your spirit back. Common sense such as yours seems to be in short supply these days.

Oz sounds interesting. Right now I am swamped.

Schelling has already referred an unusual case to the US for NUCCA intervention. He could retire like Milhorat did and hang up the gloves. But he still steps into the ring because he has a passion for the subject. It has been his lifelong pursuit. He is no push over and we have had excellent exchanges. I will be sending him my latest page on the design of the posterior fossa in different races and its impact on backjets into the straight sinus.
Last edited by uprightdoc on Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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